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Marauder 'Flames of Fate'

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Caduceus
Posts: 56

Re: Marauder 'Flames of Fate'

Post#31 » Tue May 26, 2020 8:48 am

Zxul wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 8:16 am
List of existing abilities kiters can use vs Flames of Fate:
1. Detaunt.
2. Absorb and heal pots.
3. Ranged snares- if mara blows Mutating Release just to get to rooted target, using 1-2 to survive allows to kill him after.

Last thing this server needs is going back to live, where half destro classes were free renown for a kiting sw.
These offer no satisfactory solution, and this suggestion seems to be based on a misunderstanding of the problem.

Even if the rdps manages to survive through the 10 sec root using detaunt/pots, they will still have to deal with snares, pulls, sprints(and flee + AP pot), snarebreaks, etc. The problem is once a rdps has been caught by an mdps, it becomes nearly impossible to establish range again. Whether the rdps can succesfully kite or the mdps can get a snare off is the fundamental mechanic between the mdps vs rdps fight. Flames of Fate/Ensnare just gives it to the mdps for free, and that is clearly imbalanced.

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Caduceus
Posts: 56

Re: Marauder 'Flames of Fate'

Post#32 » Tue May 26, 2020 8:56 am

Battlefield wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 8:44 am
1) First of all needed to start from Mara's pull and it is broken or bugged now but WL pet's pull not..... 2) btw what about SW' range knockdown is to be also nerfed too? 3) I think u dont understand that Marauder made versus range dps and he should do them as WL (but wl is stronger against them)!
1) The pull is fine, since there is no 10(!!!) sec root attached to it.

2) SW ranged knockdown is fine. In fact, it's the only thing that makes ranged SW viable in its current state.

3) This is nonsense, no matter what perspective you take.

From a 1v1 perspective, there's no reason one class should completely negate the other. That's bad balancing, even in a game that is supposedly 'balanced around group pvp'.

Furthermore, from a group perspective ranged snaring should not be the job of mdps, but rdps. That's how synergy is created between classes and what makes group pvp interesting. If one needs strong ranged snaring abilities in their party, they should get a ranged SH or SW, because that's their speciality. If you're going to argue that Marauder should be potent at ranged snaring, then please put their dps on par with ranged SW as well.

If destro ranged classes run into the same issue against WLs, they should change WL as well.

Caduceus
Posts: 56

Re: Marauder 'Flames of Fate'

Post#33 » Tue May 26, 2020 9:02 am

wachlarz wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 8:44 am

1k dmg its 2 ticks of hot heal. U have detaut. U have m2. U have aoe punt, or just heal. U can have a guard if U play in party or a sec healer to heal U.
We're talking in a context of rdps vs. mdps. Healers and tanks are, for the most part, not a part of this discussion.

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wachlarz
Posts: 401

Re: Marauder 'Flames of Fate'

Post#34 » Tue May 26, 2020 9:07 am

Caduceus wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 9:02 am
wachlarz wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 8:44 am

1k dmg its 2 ticks of hot heal. U have detaut. U have m2. U have aoe punt, or just heal. U can have a guard if U play in party or a sec healer to heal U.
We're talking in a context of rdps vs. mdps. Healers and tanks are, for the most part, not a part of this discussion.
So what U want to kill all mdps and zero death ? U want kite all ? So who will be playing mele target dummy ?

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Nekkma
Posts: 499

Re: Marauder 'Flames of Fate'

Post#35 » Tue May 26, 2020 9:11 am

Caduceus wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 9:02 am

We're talking in a context of rdps vs. mdps. Healers and tanks are, for the most part, not a part of this discussion.
Staff has many times said that this is a team game and 1vs1 balance is not a valid argument. Compared to other M1s it seems to strong tho. Remove damage would be a good place to start as right now you can use it both as cc and finisher.
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Sulorie
Posts: 4784

Re: Marauder 'Flames of Fate'

Post#36 » Tue May 26, 2020 9:13 am

wachlarz wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 9:07 am
Caduceus wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 9:02 am
wachlarz wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 8:44 am

1k dmg its 2 ticks of hot heal. U have detaut. U have m2. U have aoe punt, or just heal. U can have a guard if U play in party or a sec healer to heal U.
We're talking in a context of rdps vs. mdps. Healers and tanks are, for the most part, not a part of this discussion.
So what U want to kill all mdps and zero death ? U want kite all ? So who will be playing mele target dummy ?
You don't even have to remove or change the effect of this moral, just move it to m2.
Dying is no option.

Caduceus
Posts: 56

Re: Marauder 'Flames of Fate'

Post#37 » Tue May 26, 2020 9:24 am

Nekkma wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 9:11 am

Staff has many times said that this is a team game and 1vs1 balance is not a valid argument. Compared to other M1s it seems to strong tho. Remove damage would be a good place to start as right now you can use it both as cc and finisher.
Flames of Fate/Ensnare makes no sense from whatever perspective you look at it.

If you're going by the argument that the game is balanced around group-play: Flames of Fate/Ensnare is almost never used in this context, because generally there are other classes around with ranged snares. Moreover, why should, in a group context, a mdps be able to usurp the role of other classes by giving them ranged snares? That's the territory of other classes and it's what creates synergy between the classes and what makes group play interesting. If Mara is getting the ranged snare role, then its damage output should also be nerfed accordingly so it's on par with ranged SH/SW. If the game is entirely based on group play, there's no reason this ability should exist in the first place.

More likely, the ability was designed with 1v1/small-scale in mind, and it is obviously too powerful against certain classes. Either give those classes a way to react or nerf/change the ability.

Caduceus
Posts: 56

Re: Marauder 'Flames of Fate'

Post#38 » Tue May 26, 2020 9:33 am

wachlarz wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 9:07 am

So what U want to kill all mdps and zero death ? U want kite all ? So who will be playing mele target dummy ?
No, and the suggestion that this ability is what keeps Marauders from being endlessly kited is pure nonsense.

I fight Marauders and Choppas (who lack the 65ft champion's challenge) all the time, and they have many tools to deal with kiting. If we cut Flames of Fate out of the equation I'd say the match up is surprisingly balanced, assuming both sides are speccing with 1v1 fights in mind.

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wachlarz
Posts: 401

Re: Marauder 'Flames of Fate'

Post#39 » Tue May 26, 2020 9:55 am

Caduceus wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 9:33 am
wachlarz wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 9:07 am

So what U want to kill all mdps and zero death ? U want kite all ? So who will be playing mele target dummy ?
No, and the suggestion that this ability is what keeps Marauders from being endlessly kited is pure nonsense.

I fight Marauders and Choppas (who lack the 65ft champion's challenge) all the time, and they have many tools to deal with kiting. If we cut Flames of Fate out of the equation I'd say the match up is surprisingly balanced, assuming both sides are speccing with 1v1 fights in mind.
So can U write this many tools ? Not 1 or 2 many :P

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Arbich
Posts: 628

Re: Marauder 'Flames of Fate'

Post#40 » Tue May 26, 2020 10:05 am

adamthelc wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 3:32 am
I dont agree that its obvious it needs to be fixed. Its an anti kiting tool, that doesn't seem that crazy.

The problem with this game is that it wasn't originally designed with so much anti kiting tools in mind. Rdps don't really have kits to fight it effectively. Too many gap closers, not enough gap makers.

They should really consider adding stuff like blinks or teleports on rdps. I am not a huge fan of that, since it's very different than the original game. But if you are going to tinker with the original game you have to be prepared to fix the issues your tinkering causes.

So by itself I dont think these M1 are a huge problem, but they are a part of a greater problem. Which is out of date kiting tools vs more up to date gap closers/antikiting tools.
This!
There were just too many bad balance decisions in the past. Some of them mind-boggling.
flames of fate is a very strong m1, yes. But you shouldnt look at individual skills and instead always should have the greater picture in mind.

I don´t think putting flames of fate at m2 instead of m1 is a huge nerf. At least you could have confusing movements and range root this way.
I would even say that flames of fate neccessitates any change at all at the moment. At first some other class changes (and gear designs) should be reevaluated.
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