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Tank offensive Sovereign & Warlord granted ability

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Shadowgurke
Posts: 618

Re: Tank offensive Sovereign & Warlord granted ability

Post#11 » Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:27 pm

wargrimnir wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:11 pm

I am very well aware what stats are in very high demand to perfectly optimize them. Try imagining a different perspective and stop being so damn condescending. This isn't the first time you've been blatantly disrespectful.
Can you elaborate on that? I do understand that sets should never be 100% optimized because that makes them too good (bloodlord) but sovereign is supposed to be the best set in game and imo the defensive variant for tanks (block) has very good stats, while the offensive (alt sov) set has no parry? doesnt that just further incentivize dps tanks that dont guard people?
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wargrimnir
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Re: Tank offensive Sovereign & Warlord granted ability

Post#12 » Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:03 pm

Shadowgurke wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:27 pm
wargrimnir wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:11 pm

I am very well aware what stats are in very high demand to perfectly optimize them. Try imagining a different perspective and stop being so damn condescending. This isn't the first time you've been blatantly disrespectful.
Can you elaborate on that? I do understand that sets should never be 100% optimized because that makes them too good (bloodlord) but sovereign is supposed to be the best set in game and imo the defensive variant for tanks (block) has very good stats, while the offensive (alt sov) set has no parry? doesnt that just further incentivize dps tanks that dont guard people?
I spent the first several weeks tuning the sets based on feedback, I don't mind doing more. What would you replace for Parry? You would need to replace one of the set piece bonuses to get a 6% parry added which I don't see being that desirable, and the only individual pieces suitable might be back and shoulder replacing Dodge or Morale/HP regen.

Bloodlord is very much an example of a set that I let someone else run with, and it is more of a problem than an answer because of how much it deviates from other sets and creates this mindset that perfectly tuned sets are the standard that should be followed. That doesn't mean I feel it's a largely significant problem, more of a thing that people can point at and criticize. Creating more balanced sets increases the potential variety that you might use during end-game rather than having one clearly BIS set that overpowers everything else. This was an end-goal for power scaling squish from many years ago as future sets were being planned out. To be clear, statistically, Bloodlord follows the rules and has less stats in total value than the ones that are higher item level, being optimized for a single goal is what sets it apart.

If you play a tank and are at all disincentivized based on your gear to use what is arguably the best damage mitigation tool available in the game, you might be missing the point of the class. I expect the vast majority of DPS-spec tanks that know what they're doing will not be making that mistake.
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Noslock
Posts: 191

Re: Tank offensive Sovereign & Warlord granted ability

Post#13 » Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:19 pm

Well the best 2h set out there is probably still the bloodlord one.Goin for sov mix with wathever basically makes u lose str and weaponskill but hey u get shitload of useful toughness....and its funny cause you have more toughness on a 2h set than on the sov tank set if u exclude the toughness tank set bonus.Having 150 toughness or havin 300 toughness wont make any difference.And ye a lot of +ap or +morale useless stats where u could have some crit or even better some parry considering the total lack of weapon skill on the set but oh well at least it looks good
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nat3s
Posts: 251

Re: Tank offensive Sovereign & Warlord granted ability

Post#14 » Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:53 pm

Reply to my previous post noted, i'll be more careful with my phrasing.

The problem I think the current itemisation has is Anni > Conq > Vanq is a seamless transition which makes sense in terms of set bonuses and stat allocation. Each set is a clear improvement over the one that came before.

Vanq > Invader on the other hand is currently a step down or side step for a lot of classes.

Is that the intention i.e. that Anni to Vanq is your upscaling, where Vanq to Invader is designed as a choice/to provide options (perhaps Invader catering to other specs to Vanq etc) rather than a form of progression?

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wargrimnir
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Re: Tank offensive Sovereign & Warlord granted ability

Post#15 » Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:08 pm

nat3s wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:53 pm
Reply to my previous post noted, i'll be more careful with my phrasing.

The problem I think the current itemisation has is Anni > Conq > Vanq is a seamless transition which makes sense in terms of set bonuses and stat allocation. Each set is a clear improvement over the one that came before.

Vanq > Invader on the other hand is currently a step down or side step for a lot of classes.

Is that the intention i.e. that Anni to Vanq is your upscaling, where Vanq to Invader is designed as a choice/to provide options (perhaps Invader catering to other specs to Vanq etc) rather than a form of progression?

Thanks
There are three breaks in scaling from item level to item level where you gain less points for each increase in level. This is done to reduce to total available stats on set pieces. If you pay attention to item scaling from 1-40 as you're leveling, it's essentially the same from level to level until you hit Anni, where the first break happens and you get less overall stats for increase in item level. The second break happens around Invader, and the third break happens around Warlord. This ensures that statistically gear is scaling upward, but at less of a curve than was seen from extrapolating live values. In turn this gave us more confidence to implement set bonuses that weren't hot garbage. This also keeps the high end gear sets close enough together that spec flavor can potentially take precedence over what were clear BIS items on the Live server. Sov is, statistically, the highest valued set in the game. There is a significant difference between the math behind it, and the desirability of the stats assigned to each item, but those minor details can be adjusted if needed.

I don't mind talking about how stats are assigned or why things ended up the way they did, but being harassed about it is never going to be appropriate on the forums as a great many people have tested that boundary and lost privileges here as a result. Clearly in the server TOS is to always show respect to staff members. If you don't, they're under no obligation to talk to you or anyone else.
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nat3s
Posts: 251

Re: Tank offensive Sovereign & Warlord granted ability

Post#16 » Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:34 pm

Thanks for taking the time to explain and understood and agree with respect to the warning, won't happen again.
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jtj5002
Posts: 91

Re: Tank offensive Sovereign & Warlord granted ability

Post#17 » Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:46 pm

wargrimnir wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:03 pm
Shadowgurke wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:27 pm
wargrimnir wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:11 pm

I am very well aware what stats are in very high demand to perfectly optimize them. Try imagining a different perspective and stop being so damn condescending. This isn't the first time you've been blatantly disrespectful.
Can you elaborate on that? I do understand that sets should never be 100% optimized because that makes them too good (bloodlord) but sovereign is supposed to be the best set in game and imo the defensive variant for tanks (block) has very good stats, while the offensive (alt sov) set has no parry? doesnt that just further incentivize dps tanks that dont guard people?
I spent the first several weeks tuning the sets based on feedback, I don't mind doing more. What would you replace for Parry? You would need to replace one of the set piece bonuses to get a 6% parry added which I don't see being that desirable, and the only individual pieces suitable might be back and shoulder replacing Dodge or Morale/HP regen.

Bloodlord is very much an example of a set that I let someone else run with, and it is more of a problem than an answer because of how much it deviates from other sets and creates this mindset that perfectly tuned sets are the standard that should be followed. That doesn't mean I feel it's a largely significant problem, more of a thing that people can point at and criticize. Creating more balanced sets increases the potential variety that you might use during end-game rather than having one clearly BIS set that overpowers everything else. This was an end-goal for power scaling squish from many years ago as future sets were being planned out. To be clear, statistically, Bloodlord follows the rules and has less stats in total value than the ones that are higher item level, being optimized for a single goal is what sets it apart.

If you play a tank and are at all disincentivized based on your gear to use what is arguably the best damage mitigation tool available in the game, you might be missing the point of the class. I expect the vast majority of DPS-spec tanks that know what they're doing will not be making that mistake.
Well first of all both warlord /off sov ring are comically bad. Perhaps replace the toughness with wound and morale/s with 2% parry.
Warlord cloak have 2% clock but off sov replaced that with 2% dodge. You see a lot more BGs run warlord cloak for that reason.

These sets have so too much toughness on them. Beside being a bad stat, tanks takes most of their damage form guard, which is not affected by toughness.

Another recommendation is to having different purposes for tank warlord and off sov. One set could be offense focused with crit, and a defensive focused one with more wound and parry. Some people likes to build their 2h more offensive, while others like to be more defensive/utility.
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kmark101
Posts: 326

Re: Tank offensive Sovereign & Warlord granted ability

Post#18 » Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:51 pm

wargrimnir wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:03 pm

I spent the first several weeks tuning the sets based on feedback, I don't mind doing more. What would you replace for Parry? You would need to replace one of the set piece bonuses to get a 6% parry added which I don't see being that desirable, and the only individual pieces suitable might be back and shoulder replacing Dodge or Morale/HP regen.

Bloodlord is very much an example of a set that I let someone else run with, and it is more of a problem than an answer because of how much it deviates from other sets and creates this mindset that perfectly tuned sets are the standard that should be followed. That doesn't mean I feel it's a largely significant problem, more of a thing that people can point at and criticize. Creating more balanced sets increases the potential variety that you might use during end-game rather than having one clearly BIS set that overpowers everything else. This was an end-goal for power scaling squish from many years ago as future sets were being planned out. To be clear, statistically, Bloodlord follows the rules and has less stats in total value than the ones that are higher item level, being optimized for a single goal is what sets it apart.

If you play a tank and are at all disincentivized based on your gear to use what is arguably the best damage mitigation tool available in the game, you might be missing the point of the class. I expect the vast majority of DPS-spec tanks that know what they're doing will not be making that mistake.

I think the largest problem with the sets currently is that they don't consider each of the tank classes requirements. For example, tanks who do physical damage only - IB for example - lifeblood is Weaponskill and armor penetration stats , which the offensive set has minimal. This means those tanks can't use this set by default as most of their hits with this set will be mitigated. While for other tank classes that deal magical damage, the set is extremely good. I think this causes balance problems as well, as a few class can wear a set with higher point allocation and more armor, further widening the gap from tanks that need to overcome armor values with WS/armor penetration. I think this could be doable as the morale skill distribution is already on different sets for different classes.

Other issue with the sets is the aforementoined abundance of toughness disrupt/dodge and the lack of parry, weaponskill and initiative. I don't have a problem with the set bonuses, its more like the issue is on the individual pieces.

For example a possible fix would be to add +3% armor penetration to the helm, so it still has half of what the warlord set bonus offers, but a very valuable stat that is not found on other equipment, and at the same time balances out the increased values of armor on all sov sets. Something along this line.
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Re: Tank offensive Sovereign & Warlord granted ability

Post#19 » Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:58 pm

wargrimnir wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:11 pm
stuff and things
Is this a good or bad time to bring up the issue of the stats on the Zealot and Rune Priest alternate Sovereign sets being a copy and paste from the healing set? https://github.com/WarEmu/WarBugs/issues/15681. The ring and set bonuses are fine (edit: I'm personally not a fan of the 4pc healing bonus and the granted abilities, but that's just my preference), the actual stats on the other 7 items probably need looking at ;)

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TreefAM
Posts: 221

Re: Tank offensive Sovereign & Warlord granted ability

Post#20 » Wed Jun 03, 2020 12:06 am

jtj5002 wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:46 pm

Well first of all both warlord /off sov ring are comically bad. Perhaps replace the toughness with wound and morale/s with 2% parry.
Warlord cloak have 2% clock but off sov replaced that with 2% dodge. You see a lot more BGs run warlord cloak for that reason.

These sets have so too much toughness on them. Beside being a bad stat, tanks takes most of their damage form guard, which is not affected by toughness.

Another recommendation is to having different purposes for tank warlord and off sov. One set could be offense focused with crit, and a defensive focused one with more wound and parry. Some people likes to build their 2h more offensive, while others like to be more defensive/utility.
This sounds like a pretty good idea, the AP per sec is pretty useless for bgs and the morale per sec will never be enough for us to keep up with the tanks that have morale pumps.

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