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The Great Healer Debate - Armor vs. Wounds

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Omegus
Posts: 1373

Re: The Great Healer Debate - Armor vs. Wounds

Post#31 » Sat May 09, 2020 10:33 pm

blechkautz wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 10:14 pmWhen you make a call about Ehp you should also consider incomming hps vs incomming dps, because that's gonna decide if you die or not. What your spreadsheet assumes is the fact, that you don't get healed while getting hit, which is equivalend to getting bursted down while being cc'd. For that wounds is great, but let's take some fictional numbers for an example to show why that's not all that matters:
Let's say you get from stacking wounds +2000 hp and if you would instead stack mitigation (doesn't matter which type) you get an extra dmg reduce of 20% of total dmg. Then wounds is better for surviving dmg as long as you took less then 10k dmg (before mitigation), because you reduced the dmg you took by 10k*0.2 = 2k (20k dmg = 4k reduce for example) so mitigation wins here.
Why is this important? You get hit by some enemys and you don't die before you can start heal yourself or your allies can heal you, than the fact that decides if you die or not is how much heal do you get compared to how much dmg you get. If the incomming dmg is higher, your hp will go down tilll either you die or you don't get hit anymore. If your inc hps is equal or higher than the inc dmg (over time ofc) than you wont die (unless they manage to increase the dps or lower the heal).
Wounds will increase the amount of hp you can loose before you die, but they wont reduce the incomming dmg/dps (and not the incomming heal), so it only increases the time they need to take you down (or your allies have to get them of you) but it wont save you if they stick on you and overcome the inc heal.
Armor (and also toughness/resist) decreases the incomming dmg you take so there is more dps needed to overcome the incomming heal (which the enemy might not be able to do and than you survive with slotting mitigation while you would have slowly died with slotting wounds)
In short: You need as much wounds as you need to not get bursted before you can start healing (like kd or moraldump) but after that point it's way worse than slotting mitigation.
I covered this in the paragraph after the link to the spreadsheet results. As I said, I find that the wounds is enough to keep me alive long enough to get emergency heals on me and when I die it's because I have too many DPS on me. The actual difference in mitigation against the very scary classes and the bonus to healing this would provide isn't big enough for me to justify switching to armour considering the price and other drawbacks. Based on experience I am able to easily escape a partial/failed melee train, but I will die if the full train gets on me and no amount of healing could save me. This might differ in a 6v6 setting but for cities there are more than enough MDPS on a good train to punch through heals if everyone is on point - this is how those wbs get their kills and win fights and the Zealot doesn't have the numbers to swing this in any meaningful way.
Zomega: RR8x Zealot

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Toggle
Posts: 286

Re: The Great Healer Debate - Armor vs. Wounds

Post#32 » Sun May 10, 2020 10:30 am

Panodil wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 10:23 pm As a Zealot i do like armor alot because i feel like it help me alot in smallscale. I did mix armor and wounds talis before, but feelt like my wounds where fine so swapped to armor only.
atm im at 3.5k armor, 8.6k health, around 320 ini and -7-8% to be crit.
Feel like healing is fine as well with 33% healcrit and 750 willpower without Discipline.
3 Sov, 5 Vanq, 2 genesis, sent jewelry, both rr45 weapons(because better than the rr61)
But stats dont matter if you have bad position and dont use detaunt, that is bigges issue for most healers i see.

I would not waste money on armor talis if you dont do alot of sc where you gonna be meleetrained, if you play in wb in orvr you can go what ever you want and still be fine or dead depending on your position.
Are those numbers with or without buffs? I'm nowhere near that in full vanq. Is the sov really that much of a diff?
Shaman - 40/8X
Zealot - 40/8X [Retired]
AM - 40/8X
RP - 40/7X [Retired]

doky
Posts: 112

Re: The Great Healer Debate - Armor vs. Wounds

Post#33 » Sun May 10, 2020 11:07 am

You cant mitigate much with clothie healer(zeal,sham) even with full armor talis and beastlord. you get debuffed 900-1500 armor and penetrated by 50% or more by any decent DPS. Math is simple, ex: if enemy penetrates 75% armor doesnt matter if you have 1% or 75% reduction.
Dok will be able to get Armor values that work.
800+ toughness on sham feels decent option to me

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Nameless
Posts: 1141

Re: The Great Healer Debate - Armor vs. Wounds

Post#34 » Sun May 10, 2020 11:32 am

Most healers make mistake to use genesis set pieces which is quite poor on def. stats and some setup with random jewls is much more potent for def stats. I will post later my def stats with full vanq, 3 bl, random jewls and by that reach similar stats as the post above
Mostly harmless

K8P & Norn - guild Orz

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Re: The Great Healer Debate - Armor vs. Wounds

Post#35 » Sun May 10, 2020 11:44 am

Nameless wrote: Sun May 10, 2020 11:32 am Most healers make mistake to use genesis set pieces which is quite poor on def. stats and some setup with random jewls is much more potent for def stats. I will post later my def stats with full vanq, 3 bl, random jewls and by that reach similar stats as the post above
Please do. It would be greatly appreciated!
Shaman - 40/8X
Zealot - 40/8X [Retired]
AM - 40/8X
RP - 40/7X [Retired]

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Omegus
Posts: 1373

Re: The Great Healer Debate - Armor vs. Wounds

Post#36 » Sun May 10, 2020 11:55 am

Nameless wrote: Sun May 10, 2020 11:32 am Most healers make mistake to use genesis set pieces which is quite poor on def. stats and some setup with random jewls is much more potent for def stats. I will post later my def stats with full vanq, 3 bl, random jewls and by that reach similar stats as the post above
Most healers take 5pc Vanq as it's an additional source of heal crit (3% at 5pc). Once you get a crit cape (2%) and/or Sentinel Ring (4%) most of the genesis set can be replaced.
Zomega: RR8x Zealot

Panodil
Posts: 337

Re: The Great Healer Debate - Armor vs. Wounds

Post#37 » Sun May 10, 2020 12:48 pm

Toggle wrote: Sun May 10, 2020 10:30 am
Panodil wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 10:23 pm As a Zealot i do like armor alot because i feel like it help me alot in smallscale. I did mix armor and wounds talis before, but feelt like my wounds where fine so swapped to armor only.
atm im at 3.5k armor, 8.6k health, around 320 ini and -7-8% to be crit.
Feel like healing is fine as well with 33% healcrit and 750 willpower without Discipline.
3 Sov, 5 Vanq, 2 genesis, sent jewelry, both rr45 weapons(because better than the rr61)
But stats dont matter if you have bad position and dont use detaunt, that is bigges issue for most healers i see.

I would not waste money on armor talis if you dont do alot of sc where you gonna be meleetrained, if you play in wb in orvr you can go what ever you want and still be fine or dead depending on your position.
Are those numbers with or without buffs? I'm nowhere near that in full vanq. Is the sov really that much of a diff?
My bad, Ofc with buffs. Ini + willpower buff and wounds+ healingpower liniment and armor pot. I always run wounds liniment on all my healer.
Panodil WP
Panodill DoK
Panodilz Zealot
Panodilr Runepriest
Run Shaman
Panage Archmage

Panodil
Posts: 337

Re: The Great Healer Debate - Armor vs. Wounds

Post#38 » Sun May 10, 2020 12:51 pm

doky wrote: Sun May 10, 2020 11:07 am You cant mitigate much with clothie healer(zeal,sham) even with full armor talis and beastlord. you get debuffed 900-1500 armor and penetrated by 50% or more by any decent DPS. Math is simple, ex: if enemy penetrates 75% armor doesnt matter if you have 1% or 75% reduction.
Dok will be able to get Armor values that work.
800+ toughness on sham feels decent option to me
Yeah i would try toughness if i didnt already have armor in my gear :D:D
As Shaman with 240 selfbuff its a good option. Feels just wrong using renownpoints for toughness when you can go FS
Panodil WP
Panodill DoK
Panodilz Zealot
Panodilr Runepriest
Run Shaman
Panage Archmage

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TreefAM
Posts: 676

Re: The Great Healer Debate - Armor vs. Wounds

Post#39 » Sun May 10, 2020 12:56 pm

VS low armor targets the %armor pens are useless though, they barely do anything since they usually go AFTER the flat armor debuffs.

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Nameless
Posts: 1141

Re: The Great Healer Debate - Armor vs. Wounds

Post#40 » Sun May 10, 2020 1:16 pm

Sentinel ring, Gunbad ring, sov, wl backs are all good but my build is abit for more casual players cos it is easy to reach and made without full time comitment.

so my stats without any pots and buffs + 660 armor from racial tactic.
Image

To that you could add 80 wp, 660 armor for basic pots and 80 toughness from self ress rune

jewellery that i use is
[Runed Beads of Repose]
chaos/empire t4 inf reward imo must have
[Beastlord Runed Beads]
with other 2 beastlord items (back and pocket) you get 225 additional armor from set bonus
[Icon of the Mender]
just good stats, it require some fight with rng system but you nay be lucky
[Shadowy Ring of Warpstone]
this one is tricky and no idea if ppl could get it nowadays, before it was price from permanent rat event

soon i will drop some avoidance and will add toughness 70/120 so will end up with 460ish with invader around 550

ps staff is [Apostle's Runestaff of Glory] best ingame item for weapon slot for all backline healers
armor is full vanq + 3 bl, talis are some iniative, some toughness and some wounds
Mostly harmless

K8P & Norn - guild Orz

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