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Any chance for pugs vs pugs in Cities?

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Sarnai
Posts: 199

Re: Any chance for pugs vs pugs in Cities?

Post#101 » Sun May 24, 2020 2:52 pm

Telen wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 2:37 pm If it did happen two things would happen very quickly.
Pres would stop forming after they lose. It happens in 6v6. There alot of egos of decent players that think in the right pre they would beat everyone. After a few losses its everyone else and they break up and stop queueing. This is why ranked didnt work.
Pugs would find another part of the game where they want to hide from organised pvp.
If a couple of losses as a premade is enough to make someone stop, then they were always a pug. If loss after loss keeps rolling in after trying new comps, ect, and they aren't even seeing improvement, then it's time to face the music that maybe they're just not good enough. Which is fine. It's just a game. Big heads and fragile egos are quite the combination, and anyone claiming that pugs are just trying to 'get easy crests' while at the same time taking their ball and going home after a few losses need to look at themselves a little more critically first.

A pug win rewarding a tiny bit more than a premade loss might help make the transitions both ways easier. Good pugs wanting the top payout of a premade win making the transition, and a premade that simply isn't good enough to run with the top groups admitting they're better off pugging and going for the (slightly better) pug win reward.
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Re: Any chance for pugs vs pugs in Cities?

Post#102 » Sun May 24, 2020 2:54 pm

Sarnai wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 1:17 pm
Dastradis wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 12:32 pm Here I am skimming the forums to see what the server is about community wise... and lo behold it's just the same old pug/premade debate as in every other game.
ESO just recently killed off their instanced PvP scene disabling group queue and the discussion that lead up to and followed the non-sense change is pretty much replicated in this thread.

This post right here rubs me all the wrong ways, pretty much the perfect bait as far as I am concerned and the whole pug attitude in a nutshell.
Martok wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 4:08 pm This is an excellent illustrator of my prior point:

Right. The issue can't possibly be that some who play this game have actual lives outside of the game, or perhaps family members to take care of, or children or jobs or loss to deal with and therefore come here for a bit of diversion or escape with the desire to just enjoy the experience. No, it has to be they are ignorant, or lazy, or stubborn. In other words deficient in some manner. Right.
Because the people putting in the effort to organize themselves in videogames cannot possibly have families, jobs and/or a plethora of other obligations in life, too.
More importantly even the people putting in the effort to organize themselves in videogames only do so for the singleminded purpose of ruining your play, amirite?
Considering they are out for your blood it's absolutely justifiably to change the game to suit you and your fellow pugs whilst alienating that terrible, terrible playerbase of premades and average joes with social skills.

I don't quite know about the meta of this game, but in other games the "no invites for **** classes"-issue is usually resolved by being friends with other people and/or being simply good enough players to warrant the invite in spite of the class. Who knew the power of friendship even gets you pass meta circlejerks...

It'll be interesting to see how this mess is being handled here, the game actually looks fun, and how similar "conflicts" have been handled in the past. I don't feel like investing time into another game that might just end up another a hotjoin RNG-fest like ESO... these kind of games always, without exception, devolve into a shitflinging contest between people that can hardly operate keyboards demanding the game to be changed even further to accommodate their "zero effort"-schtick.
ESO serves here as good example, there are already plenty of changes in the works (based on feedback from said hotjoin RNG-fest) that are meant to tackle things that are a non-issue in competitive play and that, once the garbage changes have been implemented, will likely become issues in every single aspect of the game - but hey, let's please the hotjoin crowd, it's the people that don't think all to much that happen to spend the most money anyways.

At some point this attitude will find its way into regular sports, I am afraid.
Weird takeaway. All Martok was saying is that people play the game for different reasons. Some devote themselves to it, min-maxers, setting alarm clocks for city, ect ect. For others it's just a game, log on for a few hours when you have free time to have some fun for a little bit. Both are cool. And the great melting pot of both types of players are the lakes, hence the 'Open' part of ORvR.

Ultimately, all I see in this thread is the same as all the other threads about this topic:

Pugs wanting to play against other players who have the same mindset and effort level as they do.
Self-proclaimed 'elite' players and guilds NOT wanting to play against other players who have the same mindset and effort level as they do.

It's the elite players on the forums who don't want equal competition, and if that doesn't seem strange to you then you either just don't get it or you've already figured out that their peacocking and strutting is just to cover up the fact they don't want their pugstomping gravy train taken away.
no mate... you got it all wrong
Spoiler:
I do not want to be punished for putting in more effort than other players... I do not care if its against my opposite realms best or worse you can only beat whats infront of you and there is so many variables which make cities uncompetitive to take truely serious... I want pops and to be treated equally as rest of community... people SHOULD IMPROVE, but they DONT WANT TO. Everyone should aim to raise their game for Cities as its the end game, but you get rewarded for afkness / low dmg / dying so people dont care... they want cake and eat it while afk on the phone not even join comms... that seems like you get over rewarded for failing and no encouragement/incentive for pugs/solos to "perform" ... because RNG is RNG. Now you want to make it "elitest" and exclude "premades"... so to me that is toxic and divide the community even more, because the population is already small you cannot realistically divide it more (See ranked issues)

the content is already gated, and then you want to gate it even more because some people put in more effort and have better team work? instead of improve your own teamwork... to me that see's self entitlement and laziness... sure people are on different end of the spectrums about time invested or commitment... like i took 2 pugs today and their healing was lower than our marauders and pretty sure one was a bot... and also had a backfiller with less than 10k dmg get gold bags... they easy mode get bis currency and you want to reward this more?

I instant que and hope for the best, we use to get instant pops all the time either side... dont even try to game the system to avoid people... want to fight everyone eventually ideally when both have strongest setup...

All players are equal, premade or not... just some are more committed than others, you can get good premade or bad premade, same with pugs good or bad there is many variables, but the toxic variable for campaigning to exclude other players from content is coming from the pugs so they can put in even less work and get maybe better rewards. That is what triggering compared to the past (before personal loot bags and pugs being spoilt with dev's bending over backwards catering to ungrateful whims) I miss the times where you had to work hard for conq... Pugs deserve to be farmed until they seek self improvement and stop trying to fragment community by making unrealistic selfish demands. You already get for losing yet you want more and to punish players who care about performance... talk about never satisfied. The reason players have to be organised or should, is just incase they get equal opposition who are just as organised... everyone should strive for individual or team improvement but hardly any give a **** and just afk cities (almost) and walk in the grey area. The end game would be fun, if server didn't have such pug mindset and catering too... too many small inactive guilds and lack of alliance warbands.

so tell me why somebody who doesnt give two **** about performance and setup should get special treatment? and other players be excluded? there is not enough premades either side for other solutions, dev's do not want empty pve instances although sometimes pve would be harder because they fight back and dont just quit/afk and have weak mentality when it comes to fighting. I already know some guild who fought us and then want to manipulate que to avoid us. There is nothing stopping pugs from setting up discords and forums on self improvement/tactics and working together... (but no too much effort) but you want to stop people getting pops and limit already something very limited its not well thought through. Also if you beat the same few premades (there will only be a couple) over and over they will probably quit or fight avoid also... thats if you are lucky enough to get pop so you are back to square one and you just really dumbed down the game even more for no reason other than to appease people who are never happy and hypocritical... you get rewarded for losing (that is generous... i solo join order expecting to lose also and take advantage when i dont have time to organise)

Id rather play total war warhammer than support anything that blacklists players from end game because they bothered to put in some kind of effort in a pvp game ... that would be death of server because why bother making a guild or premade? if your progression is hindered by teaming due to low pops and being extra locked out? why bother with fking teamwork... its beyond stupid thinking...

Give me Lob, give me thundercats, give me vii/beavers, give me cntk, give me bitterstones... give me random AM/IB warband... doing cities RNG eventually you should fight everybody, I haven't fought personally TC/Cntk/BS yet 8-) I don't care who we get aslong as we get someone.
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Re: Any chance for pugs vs pugs in Cities?

Post#103 » Sun May 24, 2020 3:29 pm

Its a balance. I think there are alot of players that would get more out of the game if they took it more seriously and some that would if they treated it more as a game. Gateing these people of ffrom each other isnt likely to encourge either to. Youd just have pugs with no idea what they were doing in one pot and a super toxic bunch in another. Just making each other worse.
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Sarnai
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Re: Any chance for pugs vs pugs in Cities?

Post#104 » Sun May 24, 2020 3:53 pm

Wam wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 2:54 pm

no mate... you got it all wrong
Spoiler:
I do not want to be punished for putting in more effort than other players... I do not care if its against my opposite realms best or worse you can only beat whats infront of you and there is so many variables which make cities uncompetitive to take truely serious... I want pops and to be treated equally as rest of community... people SHOULD IMPROVE, but they DONT WANT TO. Everyone should aim to raise their game for Cities as its the end game, but you get rewarded for afkness / low dmg / dying so people dont care... they want cake and eat it while afk on the phone not even join comms... that seems like you get over rewarded for failing and no encouragement/incentive for pugs/solos to "perform" ... because RNG is RNG. Now you want to make it "elitest" and exclude "premades"... so to me that is toxic and divide the community even more, because the population is already small you cannot realistically divide it more (See ranked issues)

the content is already gated, and then you want to gate it even more because some people put in more effort and have better team work? instead of improve your own teamwork... to me that see's self entitlement and laziness... sure people are on different end of the spectrums about time invested or commitment... like i took 2 pugs today and their healing was lower than our marauders and pretty sure one was a bot... and also had a backfiller with less than 10k dmg get gold bags... they easy mode get bis currency and you want to reward this more?

I instant que and hope for the best, we use to get instant pops all the time either side... dont even try to game the system to avoid people... want to fight everyone eventually ideally when both have strongest setup...

All players are equal, premade or not... just some are more committed than others, you can get good premade or bad premade, same with pugs good or bad there is many variables, but the toxic variable for campaigning to exclude other players from content is coming from the pugs so they can put in even less work and get maybe better rewards. That is what triggering compared to the past (before personal loot bags and pugs being spoilt with dev's bending over backwards catering to ungrateful whims) I miss the times where you had to work hard for conq... Pugs deserve to be farmed until they seek self improvement and stop trying to fragment community by making unrealistic selfish demands. You already get for losing yet you want more and to punish players who care about performance... talk about never satisfied. The reason players have to be organised or should, is just incase they get equal opposition who are just as organised... everyone should strive for individual or team improvement but hardly any give a **** and just afk cities (almost) and walk in the grey area. The end game would be fun, if server didn't have such pug mindset and catering too... too many small inactive guilds and lack of alliance warbands.

so tell me why somebody who doesnt give two **** about performance and setup should get special treatment? and other players be excluded? there is not enough premades either side for other solutions, dev's do not want empty pve instances although sometimes pve would be harder because they fight back and dont just quit/afk and have weak mentality when it comes to fighting. I already know some guild who fought us and then want to manipulate que to avoid us. There is nothing stopping pugs from setting up discords and forums on self improvement/tactics and working together... (but no too much effort) but you want to stop people getting pops and limit already something very limited its not well thought through. Also if you beat the same few premades (there will only be a couple) over and over they will probably quit or fight avoid also... thats if you are lucky enough to get pop so you are back to square one and you just really dumbed down the game even more for no reason other than to appease people who are never happy and hypocritical... you get rewarded for losing (that is generous... i solo join order expecting to lose also and take advantage when i dont have time to organise)

Id rather play total war warhammer than support anything that blacklists players from end game because they bothered to put in some kind of effort in a pvp game ... that would be death of server because why bother making a guild or premade? if your progression is hindered by teaming due to low pops and being extra locked out? why bother with fking teamwork... its beyond stupid thinking...

Give me Lob, give me thundercats, give me vii/beavers, give me cntk, give me bitterstones... give me random AM/IB warband... doing cities RNG eventually you should fight everybody, I haven't fought personally TC/Cntk/BS yet 8-) I don't care who we get aslong as we get someone.
I understand what you're saying Wam, I really do. My statement about premades not wanting a fight was a broad, umbrella statement and of course there are people like you who really do want good fights. I'm one of those, too. But you're on a low pop, free-to-play game demanding that everyone put in the same level of commitment and dedication that put you and your ilk on the top of the pile or else they don't deserve to enjoy their experience in Cities, which just sounds unreasonable to me. If Cities want to be put on a pedestal as the ultimate arena for organized wb vs wb play, then great, I love it... but then the gear shouldn't be, as you said, gated behind it. But while the overall gear progression in this game is related, that's not really what this is discussion is about.

There will always be a divide between dedicated players and casuals. Always. But if end game gear is going to be put behind a single type of content for both groups then the devs need to be upfront about their vision for it: either both playstyles get their level playing field for it, or the casuals need to be told up front that their playstyle isn't going to cut it for end game gear. Either one is fine in my opinion, as long as it's clearly stated and understood by all. I think we the community could be more helpful with a LOT of things if we knew more about what the devs had in mind for their vision of the game. Everything from cities to class balance. Take my own class, WH, for example: we have no idea what the devs really want for the class, so all balance/forum suggestions are just the hodge-podge of crazy ideas that are all over the place. If they would come out and say 'we want WE/WH to be the ultimate crafting mat farmers' then great, at least we have some direction and can tailor suggestions to that.

Strayed a bit off topic there, but all I'm really saying is that claiming casual players somehow 'deserve' to get stomped and premades having to fight equally organized opponents is somehow a 'punishment' all just rubs me the wrong way.
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Sarnai
Posts: 199

Re: Any chance for pugs vs pugs in Cities?

Post#105 » Sun May 24, 2020 3:54 pm

Telen wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 3:29 pm Its a balance. I think there are alot of players that would get more out of the game if they took it more seriously and some that would if they treated it more as a game. Gateing these people of ffrom each other isnt likely to encourge either to. Youd just have pugs with no idea what they were doing in one pot and a super toxic bunch in another. Just making each other worse.
I can see that. Lots of plans look good on paper until human nature gets involved.
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Re: Any chance for pugs vs pugs in Cities?

Post#106 » Sun May 24, 2020 4:40 pm

Sarnai wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 3:53 pm
Wam wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 2:54 pm

no mate... you got it all wrong
Spoiler:
I do not want to be punished for putting in more effort than other players... I do not care if its against my opposite realms best or worse you can only beat whats infront of you and there is so many variables which make cities uncompetitive to take truely serious... I want pops and to be treated equally as rest of community... people SHOULD IMPROVE, but they DONT WANT TO. Everyone should aim to raise their game for Cities as its the end game, but you get rewarded for afkness / low dmg / dying so people dont care... they want cake and eat it while afk on the phone not even join comms... that seems like you get over rewarded for failing and no encouragement/incentive for pugs/solos to "perform" ... because RNG is RNG. Now you want to make it "elitest" and exclude "premades"... so to me that is toxic and divide the community even more, because the population is already small you cannot realistically divide it more (See ranked issues)

the content is already gated, and then you want to gate it even more because some people put in more effort and have better team work? instead of improve your own teamwork... to me that see's self entitlement and laziness... sure people are on different end of the spectrums about time invested or commitment... like i took 2 pugs today and their healing was lower than our marauders and pretty sure one was a bot... and also had a backfiller with less than 10k dmg get gold bags... they easy mode get bis currency and you want to reward this more?

I instant que and hope for the best, we use to get instant pops all the time either side... dont even try to game the system to avoid people... want to fight everyone eventually ideally when both have strongest setup...

All players are equal, premade or not... just some are more committed than others, you can get good premade or bad premade, same with pugs good or bad there is many variables, but the toxic variable for campaigning to exclude other players from content is coming from the pugs so they can put in even less work and get maybe better rewards. That is what triggering compared to the past (before personal loot bags and pugs being spoilt with dev's bending over backwards catering to ungrateful whims) I miss the times where you had to work hard for conq... Pugs deserve to be farmed until they seek self improvement and stop trying to fragment community by making unrealistic selfish demands. You already get for losing yet you want more and to punish players who care about performance... talk about never satisfied. The reason players have to be organised or should, is just incase they get equal opposition who are just as organised... everyone should strive for individual or team improvement but hardly any give a **** and just afk cities (almost) and walk in the grey area. The end game would be fun, if server didn't have such pug mindset and catering too... too many small inactive guilds and lack of alliance warbands.

so tell me why somebody who doesnt give two **** about performance and setup should get special treatment? and other players be excluded? there is not enough premades either side for other solutions, dev's do not want empty pve instances although sometimes pve would be harder because they fight back and dont just quit/afk and have weak mentality when it comes to fighting. I already know some guild who fought us and then want to manipulate que to avoid us. There is nothing stopping pugs from setting up discords and forums on self improvement/tactics and working together... (but no too much effort) but you want to stop people getting pops and limit already something very limited its not well thought through. Also if you beat the same few premades (there will only be a couple) over and over they will probably quit or fight avoid also... thats if you are lucky enough to get pop so you are back to square one and you just really dumbed down the game even more for no reason other than to appease people who are never happy and hypocritical... you get rewarded for losing (that is generous... i solo join order expecting to lose also and take advantage when i dont have time to organise)

Id rather play total war warhammer than support anything that blacklists players from end game because they bothered to put in some kind of effort in a pvp game ... that would be death of server because why bother making a guild or premade? if your progression is hindered by teaming due to low pops and being extra locked out? why bother with fking teamwork... its beyond stupid thinking...

Give me Lob, give me thundercats, give me vii/beavers, give me cntk, give me bitterstones... give me random AM/IB warband... doing cities RNG eventually you should fight everybody, I haven't fought personally TC/Cntk/BS yet 8-) I don't care who we get aslong as we get someone.
I understand what you're saying Wam, I really do. My statement about premades not wanting a fight was a broad, umbrella statement and of course there are people like you who really do want good fights. I'm one of those, too. But you're on a low pop, free-to-play game demanding that everyone put in the same level of commitment and dedication that put you and your ilk on the top of the pile or else they don't deserve to enjoy their experience in Cities, which just sounds unreasonable to me. If Cities want to be put on a pedestal as the ultimate arena for organized wb vs wb play, then great, I love it... but then the gear shouldn't be, as you said, gated behind it. But while the overall gear progression in this game is related, that's not really what this is discussion is about.

There will always be a divide between dedicated players and casuals. Always. But if end game gear is going to be put behind a single type of content for both groups then the devs need to be upfront about their vision for it: either both playstyles get their level playing field for it, or the casuals need to be told up front that their playstyle isn't going to cut it for end game gear. Either one is fine in my opinion, as long as it's clearly stated and understood by all. I think we the community could be more helpful with a LOT of things if we knew more about what the devs had in mind for their vision of the game. Everything from cities to class balance. Take my own class, WH, for example: we have no idea what the devs really want for the class, so all balance/forum suggestions are just the hodge-podge of crazy ideas that are all over the place. If they would come out and say 'we want WE/WH to be the ultimate crafting mat farmers' then great, at least we have some direction and can tailor suggestions to that.

Strayed a bit off topic there, but all I'm really saying is that claiming casual players somehow 'deserve' to get stomped and premades having to fight equally organized opponents is somehow a 'punishment' all just rubs me the wrong way.
In a utopia where things was even and balanced population wise and progression wasn't already as gated as it is then yes having the choice of opt in (not exclude) would be okay

but with timezones and population/lack of premades will be balanced either side... fragmenting already small population is not a legitmate solution (see problems with ranked but magnified due to lack of cities and difference in timezones) it would not be a fair system ...

The issue is the alternatives, PVE instance? Empty instance? no instance? or the status quo? or "ranked" city? which is the fairest system? Rank sc are broken most the time and city at random o clock will be worse... no instance is rewarding end game without any effort... no instance pops sucks and maybe should have 1 royal crest reward for queing and missing out (cannot overly reward unfortunately or everyone will stack one side) Pve instance is probably the better choice compared to fighting weak pugs (generally speaking, some are good and dont give up but majority are defeatist and easily broken see minimal effort maximum reward) but the amount of time/tools needed and also different direction for pve instance (also alot of people will QQ about forced pve over pvp ... so you cannot always please everyone)

The system is not the perfect, the match making in particular when waiting so long and it doesn't prioritize those who sign up first... but its the least bad choice in my opinion out of all the options... if the dev's bothered to waste time and energy (if it was even possible) to make a seperate ranked city (then i am pretty sure pugs would complain about lack of reward in comparison) Carrot and stick can only work so much... issue is people complain and complain to eventually get things nerfed for even more minimal effort maximum reward... the fact people can join random city do less than 10k dmg on a tank and get a blue and gold bag... the contribution system is broken and rng, the match making system also has issues... but what is the fix? excluding players because they put in a bit more effort is definately not the answer. Also some people will always game the system no matter what you do. Dev's vision could help with somethings, but sometimes vision changes over time or different dev's have different views...

I think if people was shown their number in the que and it was first come first serve basis is best, so if premade want they que at start to face like minded... if pug want they avoid the initial que phase THE ISSUE YOU HAVE IS... when premade either lack balls or have issues (random crash, afker , filling problems etc) and either intentionally or unintentionally manipulate the system and ive seen it a few times... but ultimately you can only beat whats infront of you whether its the best or worse, the inconsitency and lack of clarity (as well of time gated) is the frustrating part. Or maybe people's expectations are too high on entering, like i know if i join as solo chances are losing because i havent had time to organise and i should be fine with this because there's more i could of done to increase my chances... Now if i was playing a unloved class in solo (and not wanted by bigger teams) you either have to make your own, or hope one day dev's finally give your class some love and direction, to me each class should be viable in everything some dev's might have different views on some class direction. Some classes get spoilt with multiple roles and viable builds then others have 0 in comparison.

You also have problem of defining premade (if you take one plus pug does that make you still a premade? ) is alliance premade? is guild only premade? does everyone need to be on comms for it to be premade? people's defining stick is different... for me if we bring alts and not min maxed to the highest level are we still premade? (Which is very rare to be complete A setup)
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Re: Any chance for pugs vs pugs in Cities?

Post#107 » Sun May 24, 2020 5:20 pm

Wam wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 2:54 pm
Sarnai wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 1:17 pm
Dastradis wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 12:32 pm Here I am skimming the forums to see what the server is about community wise... and lo behold it's just the same old pug/premade debate as in every other game.
ESO just recently killed off their instanced PvP scene disabling group queue and the discussion that lead up to and followed the non-sense change is pretty much replicated in this thread.

This post right here rubs me all the wrong ways, pretty much the perfect bait as far as I am concerned and the whole pug attitude in a nutshell.



Because the people putting in the effort to organize themselves in videogames cannot possibly have families, jobs and/or a plethora of other obligations in life, too.
More importantly even the people putting in the effort to organize themselves in videogames only do so for the singleminded purpose of ruining your play, amirite?
Considering they are out for your blood it's absolutely justifiably to change the game to suit you and your fellow pugs whilst alienating that terrible, terrible playerbase of premades and average joes with social skills.

I don't quite know about the meta of this game, but in other games the "no invites for **** classes"-issue is usually resolved by being friends with other people and/or being simply good enough players to warrant the invite in spite of the class. Who knew the power of friendship even gets you pass meta circlejerks...

It'll be interesting to see how this mess is being handled here, the game actually looks fun, and how similar "conflicts" have been handled in the past. I don't feel like investing time into another game that might just end up another a hotjoin RNG-fest like ESO... these kind of games always, without exception, devolve into a shitflinging contest between people that can hardly operate keyboards demanding the game to be changed even further to accommodate their "zero effort"-schtick.
ESO serves here as good example, there are already plenty of changes in the works (based on feedback from said hotjoin RNG-fest) that are meant to tackle things that are a non-issue in competitive play and that, once the garbage changes have been implemented, will likely become issues in every single aspect of the game - but hey, let's please the hotjoin crowd, it's the people that don't think all to much that happen to spend the most money anyways.

At some point this attitude will find its way into regular sports, I am afraid.
Weird takeaway. All Martok was saying is that people play the game for different reasons. Some devote themselves to it, min-maxers, setting alarm clocks for city, ect ect. For others it's just a game, log on for a few hours when you have free time to have some fun for a little bit. Both are cool. And the great melting pot of both types of players are the lakes, hence the 'Open' part of ORvR.

Ultimately, all I see in this thread is the same as all the other threads about this topic:

Pugs wanting to play against other players who have the same mindset and effort level as they do.
Self-proclaimed 'elite' players and guilds NOT wanting to play against other players who have the same mindset and effort level as they do.

It's the elite players on the forums who don't want equal competition, and if that doesn't seem strange to you then you either just don't get it or you've already figured out that their peacocking and strutting is just to cover up the fact they don't want their pugstomping gravy train taken away.
no mate... you got it all wrong
Spoiler:
I do not want to be punished for putting in more effort than other players... I do not care if its against my opposite realms best or worse you can only beat whats infront of you and there is so many variables which make cities uncompetitive to take truely serious... I want pops and to be treated equally as rest of community... people SHOULD IMPROVE, but they DONT WANT TO. Everyone should aim to raise their game for Cities as its the end game, but you get rewarded for afkness / low dmg / dying so people dont care... they want cake and eat it while afk on the phone not even join comms... that seems like you get over rewarded for failing and no encouragement/incentive for pugs/solos to "perform" ... because RNG is RNG. Now you want to make it "elitest" and exclude "premades"... so to me that is toxic and divide the community even more, because the population is already small you cannot realistically divide it more (See ranked issues)

the content is already gated, and then you want to gate it even more because some people put in more effort and have better team work? instead of improve your own teamwork... to me that see's self entitlement and laziness... sure people are on different end of the spectrums about time invested or commitment... like i took 2 pugs today and their healing was lower than our marauders and pretty sure one was a bot... and also had a backfiller with less than 10k dmg get gold bags... they easy mode get bis currency and you want to reward this more?

I instant que and hope for the best, we use to get instant pops all the time either side... dont even try to game the system to avoid people... want to fight everyone eventually ideally when both have strongest setup...

All players are equal, premade or not... just some are more committed than others, you can get good premade or bad premade, same with pugs good or bad there is many variables, but the toxic variable for campaigning to exclude other players from content is coming from the pugs so they can put in even less work and get maybe better rewards. That is what triggering compared to the past (before personal loot bags and pugs being spoilt with dev's bending over backwards catering to ungrateful whims) I miss the times where you had to work hard for conq... Pugs deserve to be farmed until they seek self improvement and stop trying to fragment community by making unrealistic selfish demands. You already get for losing yet you want more and to punish players who care about performance... talk about never satisfied. The reason players have to be organised or should, is just incase they get equal opposition who are just as organised... everyone should strive for individual or team improvement but hardly any give a **** and just afk cities (almost) and walk in the grey area. The end game would be fun, if server didn't have such pug mindset and catering too... too many small inactive guilds and lack of alliance warbands.

so tell me why somebody who doesnt give two **** about performance and setup should get special treatment? and other players be excluded? there is not enough premades either side for other solutions, dev's do not want empty pve instances although sometimes pve would be harder because they fight back and dont just quit/afk and have weak mentality when it comes to fighting. I already know some guild who fought us and then want to manipulate que to avoid us. There is nothing stopping pugs from setting up discords and forums on self improvement/tactics and working together... (but no too much effort) but you want to stop people getting pops and limit already something very limited its not well thought through. Also if you beat the same few premades (there will only be a couple) over and over they will probably quit or fight avoid also... thats if you are lucky enough to get pop so you are back to square one and you just really dumbed down the game even more for no reason other than to appease people who are never happy and hypocritical... you get rewarded for losing (that is generous... i solo join order expecting to lose also and take advantage when i dont have time to organise)

Id rather play total war warhammer than support anything that blacklists players from end game because they bothered to put in some kind of effort in a pvp game ... that would be death of server because why bother making a guild or premade? if your progression is hindered by teaming due to low pops and being extra locked out? why bother with fking teamwork... its beyond stupid thinking...

Give me Lob, give me thundercats, give me vii/beavers, give me cntk, give me bitterstones... give me random AM/IB warband... doing cities RNG eventually you should fight everybody, I haven't fought personally TC/Cntk/BS yet 8-) I don't care who we get aslong as we get someone.
man, you are absolutely wrong. it seems that you want to remake the whole world according to your imaginary sketches at your mind, do you really think that this is realizable? I want to reassure you, it’s impossible, either you accept the world as it is or ... by expelling pugs from the server you will achieve only one thing, you will be left alone with your warband. if you can’t find yourself an equal enemy, these are your problems, not the others. when you all say that premades and organized warbands should get better rewards then that they do more efforts, etc., I say "stop"! why do you need the best rewards? to make that the gap in equipment and power will become even more catastrophic?

I think that everyone needs to just play for fun, if you want to play as pug u should play with pugs, if you want to play as premade, u should organise premade, if you want to play as small-scall frendly group, play as that as u would like, just don't **** the brains to others.


if pugs want to play with pugs, what's wrong with that? if there is a pug scenario, why not make pug mirrors for city sieges ?!

at all, don’t you yourself see what to demand from others to play as you want it is too selfish, if not strange?!
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Re: Any chance for pugs vs pugs in Cities?

Post#108 » Sun May 24, 2020 5:27 pm

Wonder how happy the poster for pug v pug city would be if this happened and they realize the non pug queue has to be rewarded better as the pugs by default already said they lost vs non pug
Model for reward would be (lowest to highest)
pug loosing side
Pug winning side
Non pug losing side
Non pug winning side.

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Re: Any chance for pugs vs pugs in Cities?

Post#109 » Sun May 24, 2020 5:49 pm

What about making city 36 v 36 and pulling from both? Then changing city up so it has to spread a little. So the pres have to get the pugs to help out to accomplish things and the pugs get to try a little organisation. Just a thought. Maybe even a stage where different parties are put together and do like an sc as a stage.
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Re: Any chance for pugs vs pugs in Cities?

Post#110 » Sun May 24, 2020 5:53 pm

I really don't have the time for this, but as is my nature when personally targeted I will respond.

Dastradis wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 12:32 pmThis post right here rubs me all the wrong ways....

Then perhaps you should have read it first. And then followed that up by applying, you know, some actual thought to your response.

Again, for the record, this is the original post I responded to:

Wam wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 1:41 pmWhy do you try paint guilds are the big bad guys? when its the stubborn/ignorance/laziness of pugs who want to be competitive without putting in any work... if destro pugs can do it, why not orders...

What I objected to in that post, as I tried to explain to the last person to react as you did, was the name calling. Simply because someone may desire a dedicated PUG city instance does not render them lazy, or ignorant, or stubborn, or automatically deficient in any other manner. It simply means different players are driven by varied motivators, and demeaning them simply because they don't play the game in the same manner as someone else is incredibly petty.

As for your Straw-man arguments:

Dastradis wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 12:32 pmBecause the people putting in the effort to organize themselves in videogames cannot possibly have families, jobs and/or a plethora of other obligations in life, too.

I never said this. The context of my comment was simple, that different players are driven by varied motivators. Me, I have no desire to get out of bed at 5AM just to log on and run a city. That truth does not render me lazy, or ignorant, or stubborn. It just means I figure there will be another city along some other time.

Dastradis wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 12:32 pmMore importantly even the people putting in the effort to organize themselves in videogames only do so for the singleminded purpose of ruining your play, amirite?

Ok, this is just moronic. If you are going to attack someone you obviously believe is inferior to you, then I reissue my suggestion to actually apply some thought to that effort.

Dastradis wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 12:32 pmConsidering they are out for your blood it's absolutely justifiably to change the game to suit you and your fellow pugs whilst alienating that terrible, terrible playerbase of premades and average joes with social skills.

I never said any of this crap either. Seriously, I would appreciate you explaining how you justify going all apoplectic over comments never made. That would be interesting reading.

My position on the issue of this thread I have articulated, and it amounts to nothing more than I support the idea of a pug city instance. If you go back and actually read my post you will not find where I called anyone any names or said any of the other crap you are accusing me of while stating that support.

Dastradis wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 12:32 pmI don't quite know about the meta of this game...

Obviously there is much you don't know about this game. But hey, just continue to fabricate narratives as you go along and you will be fine, I am sure.

Dastradis wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 12:32 pm...but in other games the "no invites for **** classes"-issue is usually resolved by being friends with other people and/or being simply good enough players to warrant the invite in spite of the class. Who knew the power of friendship even gets you pass meta circlejerks...

Whether you realize it or not you are making the same argument as Wam. All issues associated with particular players being excluded from any city warband are attributable to only one cause, those players are personally deficient in some manner. Ergo:

Dastradis wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 12:32 pmIt'll be interesting to see how this mess is being handled here, the game actually looks fun, and how similar "conflicts" have been handled in the past. I don't feel like investing time into another game that might just end up another a hotjoin RNG-fest like ESO... these kind of games always, without exception, devolve into a shitflinging contest between people that can hardly operate keyboards demanding the game to be changed even further to accommodate their "zero effort"-schtick.

Great minds think alike, I guess.
Last edited by Martok on Sun May 24, 2020 10:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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