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Debate about why Order is how it is.

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Vayra
Posts: 577

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#431 » Wed May 13, 2020 8:51 am

Telen wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 8:10 am
Vayra wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 8:08 am Or how about not? DoK/WP have faster (and weaker) gheals as compensation for having to be closer to the action and not getting ranged damage options.
They dont get closer to the action though do they thats the problem. They play as backline healer with all these advantages because they were originally designed as a front line healer. Thats why they overperform and are by far the most played class. That heal was brought in later because they were being played as backline and running out of mechanic points but they retained all the benefits. Either make the heal the same as backline healers as thats how most play them or reduce the range.
Running out of SE/RF is the cost of going backline. We only have 8/s passive regen with the best offhands currently available (vs 12 from lotd chalice + 3 from sov jewel on live). To get more we need to either use Blood Offering/Supplication to spend a few seconds effectively stunned to regen or be close enough to get hit (for set bonuses to trigger and WP +heal on disrupt tactic) or hit the enemy. However, with the aoe cap increase the regen from Essence Lash (and whatever the WP one is called) was nerfed from 45 to 15 per target hit, meaning you have to hit 3x as many targets to regen the same amount of resource which is not happening unless you're about to die a very horrible death.

The reason there are so many WPs is that they're tanky and so less dependent on support from tanks/other healers, look cool and people are hoping against all odds that there will be a viable 2H spec for rvr play.
Potential healing output over a fight is higher (at least for RP) if both are free casting from the backline, but the WP will likely pull ahead if they're taking either very little damage (so the faster cast time lets him heal first) or if the healers are being pressured due to better survivability and getting 20% more healing after a disrupt (wtb that tactic on DoK pls).
Vayra - Sorc
Forkrul - DoK
Kalyth - BG

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cfabr
Posts: 51

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#432 » Wed May 13, 2020 8:54 am

Order just needs more grp utility-classes, instead of high burst single/aoe damage classes.

traja7
Posts: 9

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#433 » Wed May 13, 2020 10:01 am

videogamer wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 7:49 am I wonder if you were able to get city population data as well as I'd expect more melee classes to hang out doing scenarios and what not, especially a class like Blackguard which really doesn't need to step foot in RvR very much.
Yes, easily. It will have to be its separate chart so will take a bit to collect data. I need to leave several hours between city scans so that I don't keep getting the same afk players over and over. Here are the exact percentage values:

BO 9.19051878354204
Chos 10.0849731663685
BG 4.20393559928444
Chop 8.34078711985689
Mara 6.05992844364937
WE 5.94812164579606
Sham 9.70483005366726
Zeal 7.96064400715563
DOK 11.6055456171735
SH 10.8899821109123
Mag 6.93202146690519
Sorc 8.85509838998211
SM 4.76303881876637
KOTB 6.62062395808526
IB 5.21552750654918
Slayer 8.19242676827816
WL 9.74041438437723
WH 6.59680876399143
AM 6.64443915217909
RP 10.1690878780662
WP 15.8371040723982
SW 4.35818051917123
Engi 10.7882829245058
BW 11.0740652536318
Last edited by traja7 on Wed May 13, 2020 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Telen
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Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#434 » Wed May 13, 2020 10:17 am

Vayra wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 8:51 am Running out of SE/RF is the cost of going backline. We only have 8/s passive regen with the best offhands currently available (vs 12 from lotd chalice + 3 from sov jewel on live). To get more we need to either use Blood Offering/Supplication to spend a few seconds effectively stunned to regen or be close enough to get hit (for set bonuses to trigger and WP +heal on disrupt tactic) or hit the enemy. However, with the aoe cap increase the regen from Essence Lash (and whatever the WP one is called) was nerfed from 45 to 15 per target hit, meaning you have to hit 3x as many targets to regen the same amount of resource which is not happening unless you're about to die a very horrible death.

The reason there are so many WPs is that they're tanky and so less dependent on support from tanks/other healers, look cool and people are hoping against all odds that there will be a viable 2H spec for rvr play.
Potential healing output over a fight is higher (at least for RP) if both are free casting from the backline, but the WP will likely pull ahead if they're taking either very little damage (so the faster cast time lets him heal first) or if the healers are being pressured due to better survivability and getting 20% more healing after a disrupt (wtb that tactic on DoK pls).
I always wonder if people that just want something to be true really believe it. Ive played the class. Its extremely easy to play as a backling healer. As long as you use the ap heal on cd you have 2 ap pools to pull from. Theres no problem managing it. The fact is wp/dok have gheals with shorter cast time than the st heal of the other healers and as we know without the aoe cap its all about that now. As you say because they are meant to be a melee healer that cant be setback. That design never made it out of beta. If you think the most played classes are that for any other reason than over performing you clearly never played an mmo.
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emiliorv
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Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#435 » Wed May 13, 2020 10:47 am

Spoiler:
Telen wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 10:17 am
Vayra wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 8:51 am Running out of SE/RF is the cost of going backline. We only have 8/s passive regen with the best offhands currently available (vs 12 from lotd chalice + 3 from sov jewel on live). To get more we need to either use Blood Offering/Supplication to spend a few seconds effectively stunned to regen or be close enough to get hit (for set bonuses to trigger and WP +heal on disrupt tactic) or hit the enemy. However, with the aoe cap increase the regen from Essence Lash (and whatever the WP one is called) was nerfed from 45 to 15 per target hit, meaning you have to hit 3x as many targets to regen the same amount of resource which is not happening unless you're about to die a very horrible death.

The reason there are so many WPs is that they're tanky and so less dependent on support from tanks/other healers, look cool and people are hoping against all odds that there will be a viable 2H spec for rvr play.
Potential healing output over a fight is higher (at least for RP) if both are free casting from the backline, but the WP will likely pull ahead if they're taking either very little damage (so the faster cast time lets him heal first) or if the healers are being pressured due to better survivability and getting 20% more healing after a disrupt (wtb that tactic on DoK pls).
I always wonder if people that just want something to be true really believe it. Ive played the class. Its extremely easy to play as a backling healer. As long as you use the ap heal on cd you have 2 ap pools to pull from. Theres no problem managing it. The fact is wp/dok have gheals with shorter cast time than the st heal of the other healers and as we know without the aoe cap its all about that now. As you say because they are meant to be a melee healer that cant be setback. That design never made it out of beta. If you think the most played classes are that for any other reason than over performing you clearly never played an mmo.
And RP/zealot is hard to play (as a backline healer)?? as a DoK/WP is close to impossible to outheal a ST focus. Also RP/ZE have some amazing tactics procs for grp utility.
For sure the "numbers" are in favor to DoK/WP (i mean the healing tables in SC/city)...but mostly are "fluf" heals:
-Group hot perma up
-PBAOE channel heal
-Absorb not count => all the shielding from the RP/ZE procs dont show in the "heal numbers" but are a real dmg mitigation
-Also dok/wp takes advantage of the +25% heal from the RP/ZE tactic proc.

But hey, ppl only see the big numbers in city/sc scores...for that WP/DoK are kings

skinnyraf
Posts: 23

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#436 » Wed May 13, 2020 11:35 am

I don't have a high rank/rr WP here, but WP was my main on retail - I don't know if a lot changed. Tankiness + chained AoE detaunt was the reason I didn't have to be so focused on survival. Instead, I could focus on reading the battlefield and predicting who'd need support soon, rather than reacting to health bars only. I don't remember RF management to be an issue. Between Divine Mend and re-casting detaunt, passive regen would catch up and there would always be a couple seconds here and there of relative calm for occasional supplication.

And having both an RP and a WP in a party seemed optimal.

I fully agree with the comment that people are drawn to WP by the image of swinging their 2hander and healing their mates at the same time - especially as it was valid in T1. Best of both worlds: a healer at the frontlines. Realising that Salvation was the only way to go was probably my biggest disappointment in WAR.

Caveat: this is from a perspective of a "dedicated casual" playing in non-hardcore premades consisting of any mates that happened to be online.

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Telen
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Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#437 » Wed May 13, 2020 1:19 pm

emiliorv wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 10:47 am And RP/zealot is hard to play (as a backline healer)?? as a DoK/WP is close to impossible to outheal a ST focus. Also RP/ZE have some amazing tactics procs for grp utility.
For sure the "numbers" are in favor to DoK/WP (i mean the healing tables in SC/city)...but mostly are "fluf" heals:
-Group hot perma up
-PBAOE channel heal
-Absorb not count => all the shielding from the RP/ZE procs dont show in the "heal numbers" but are a real dmg mitigation
-Also dok/wp takes advantage of the +25% heal from the RP/ZE tactic proc.

But hey, ppl only see the big numbers in city/sc scores...for that WP/DoK are kings
And cleanse isnt shown on boards either for which wp/dok are also kings and flat out cancel alot more damage than absorb which are notoriously **** in WAR.
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emiliorv
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Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#438 » Wed May 13, 2020 3:11 pm

Spoiler:
Telen wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 1:19 pm
emiliorv wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 10:47 am And RP/zealot is hard to play (as a backline healer)?? as a DoK/WP is close to impossible to outheal a ST focus. Also RP/ZE have some amazing tactics procs for grp utility.
For sure the "numbers" are in favor to DoK/WP (i mean the healing tables in SC/city)...but mostly are "fluf" heals:
-Group hot perma up
-PBAOE channel heal
-Absorb not count => all the shielding from the RP/ZE procs dont show in the "heal numbers" but are a real dmg mitigation
-Also dok/wp takes advantage of the +25% heal from the RP/ZE tactic proc.

But hey, ppl only see the big numbers in city/sc scores...for that WP/DoK are kings
And cleanse isnt shown on boards either for which wp/dok are also kings and flat out cancel alot more damage than absorb which are notoriously **** in WAR.
Under pressure mostly wp/dok will focus on heal instead of cleanse

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Telen
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Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#439 » Wed May 13, 2020 3:12 pm

emiliorv wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 3:11 pm Under pressure mostly wp/dok will focus on heal instead of cleanse
Then they are going to be under alot more pressure than they need to
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traja7
Posts: 9

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#440 » Wed May 13, 2020 3:23 pm

Just a small update on the data while the server is down. I rearranged the roles and color coded them, and also matched mirrors where possible. Of course roles are complicated with some classes. There is some additional data but honestly the results look pretty stable for RvR. I am collecting city data but it's too early to be statistically interesting. Oh and raw numbers are in as well if someone wants to represent them in a different way.

https://imgur.com/a/0FnsSPk

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