Debate about why Order is how it is.

[Telen]

Mara pull is weaker, chp pull is stronger but it really was a 100% **** ability and still is mostly for pug bullyin or stringing together a longer 1v1 disabler

Mara pull is weaker? Live it went off intel.

[Bozzax]

Yep live version was ”stronger” bc of less range checks and charge + pull tricks

Matter of opinion but I like ol version more.

[IAko]

I'll be honest, this thread has got me 90% towards quitting playing (I won't be missed, no one can have my stuff), because i only want to play order but its so frustrating how bad we (collectively) play. This post is going to be about the orvr zones.

Pushing mid zones and then putting no effort into the next zone, fighting at WCs instead of fighting for BO's/ranking up keeps, not putting full warbands on posterns during attacks and defences or managing to get people there who then fomo back to mid in dribs and drabs, so many people afk leeching renown in zones putting in no/minimal effort but not actually helping, some of these people don't even have the manners to get off their horses.

2 days ago BFP, Gnol Baraz finally taken after several hours of failed 'pushes', 180 order in zone, 80 destro... majority of order chase destro to WC and stay there, no one takes responsibility for capping the BOs in the badlands, 1fg destro recaps the undefended keep, took over 20 minutes to finally lock the zone down, **** embarrassing. This clusterfuck is becoming the normal as minimal effort is put in by majority of faction.

Order blob pushes when it has overwhelming numbers but doesn't learn, employs no good practice so when its anything like even numbers (and there I think we struggle due to class composition and certain class mechanics (GtdC)) there is no one taking responsibility for things like defending posterns while working on an inner to stop reinforcements getting in and virtually no one gives any consideration of the importance of BO control, another example Praag yesterday, order had twice the number and were all fighting over MS, destro just held the other 3 BOs all the time I was watching.

Very few people follow WB leaders, so very few people step up to lead, meaning most WBs in zones are pugs with no direction or being led by a leader who is trying but less than 50% of the wb listen so that gets frustrating, the few organised WBs appear to make a difference but often there seems to be too few of them to take ownership of the battlefield elements that require ownership.

Here I too am part of the problem, tried to lead pug WBs and got frustrated with (most) people not following so mostly just try to keep groups fixed and make sure people are at objective, joined a guild and had a few good rvr WBs and couple of good 3fg city premades but didn't like the guild politics or discord so left, I also don't attempt to join groups that require discord because I'm old and grumpy (that one is totally on me).

[Telen]

Yep live version was ”stronger” bc of less range checks and charge + pull tricks

Matter of opinion but I like ol version more.

90% of the time it was disrupted on live mate

[cfabr]

Hello,

Over the years the topic often see the light of day "Why is Order lacking tanks, so full of RangedDPS and dpshealers?"
And while there is some truth to it on a general pug-scale of things, the premade 6man teams are doing alright and warband guilds still manage to get their 2-2-2 setup. So why is that, what do YOU think?

Here is my take on why that happens (very generally speaking for the realmwide problem):

1) Order tanks are just not looking "cool" or "good" compared to the Destro supperior evil tanklords.
IB get a simple look with a bucket-helmet, SM is hardstuck looking like an elf in a dress like the rest of the Highelves and unless you are diehard into that apperence it might throw you off, and last but not least Knight with feathery hats and 1800's beardstyle &hairstyles.

But look is not everything to some people. So how does the order tanks compare in playing them with their toolkits.
IB with a very interactive classmechanic is wonderful for duo upto 12man playstyle, some would argue. Fast swapping of oatfriend and buffing & debuffing for your team requires fastfingers and good keybindings.
Swordmaster swinging that big plastic sword around dealing big spirit damage with a mechanic that feels satisfying to jump between balace-stances.
Knight with the least interactive or interesting mechanic of the auras, bring so much value in terms of stat buffs/debuffs just for being in range. And while +15% strongerhealing is amazing in organized play, that benefit is hardly what is making Average-Joe roll the class, as bringing something like that to a pug scenario is hard to remain excited about and get a satisfying feeling of contributing to the team directly. Aoe staggering and superpunting are tools the knight bring to the table but will average players use these tools correctly instead of giving out free-munities?

2) What happends when a realm is begining to lack tanks?
You will see the meleedps be unguarded and hesistate, die unguarded, and if the spiral continues they will stop playing their melees and go to other archtypes or go more into a solo roaming style as we saw a while back with guardian WLs everywhere during NA hours when it was low pop.
So With lack of tanks, not much mdps. The frontline is none exsistant on the realm generally speaking.

3) players will now see an overload of RangedDPS as players dont want to die unguarded on their meleeDPS classes. if they still want to deal damage, or they go to dps healers because who want to heal instant dieing unguarded meleedps So purehealers are still to be found but with an increase in dpshealers instead.

So I am interested to hear what reasons the rest of you RoR community think is the reason we are seeing Order being more backline heavy, where as destro is more frontline heavy.
Is it because Order RDPS feels or look better? Does destro frontline toons just feel or look better?

What do you think?

In an attempt to go back to the original question ... (because i think it's interesting)

First of all. I'm an introvert so some of you might recognise what i'm talking about and others propaly wount have the slightest idea. Overall i think the game is pretty well balanced, but thats not the main issue here. You are asking why some classes are more popular on order side then others ... I think it might be more related to introvert vs extrovert vs looks/appereances (and ofcouse looks/appereance is more of an personal preference). So let me go trough the classes vs their mirror classes and have this in mind (introvert > extrovert), from my perspective as an introvert.

Engineer >> Magus ... I would pick the Engi, mainly because of the healkeg (and the range), because i would be able too play this toon mainly on my own.
Ironbreaker < Black guard ... Skills are pretty much the same, but the BG just looks better.
Runepriest < Zealot ... Again, skills the same, but zealot just looks better.
Slayer < Choppa ... Again, skills the same, but i prefer choppa from the looks.
Bright Wizard >> Sorcerer ... BW has selfcleanse and BW Just looks badass compared to sorcerer, because i would be able too play this toon mainly on my own (maybe with a pocket healer or a tanker)
KotB < Chosen ... Overall skills the same, but that chosen armor just looks cool.
Warrior Priest > DoK ... WP because of the woundsbuff. Appereance wise, they both look pretty cool.
Witch Hunter >> Witch elf ... WH does spirit damage (which just stick better to target then corp damage) and that armor looks like the next van helsing.
Arcemage >> Shaman ... DpsAM has spirit damage and with radiant burst, they can actually go heal spec and do some decent damage if you wonna play on your own.
Shadow Warrior = Suigh herder ... Well this is a 50/50, i just like the looks of Suiggies better.
Sword Master >> Black Orc ... I dont know how SM does it, but with some builds you do decent healing aswell as dps so i would consider SM more appealing.
White Lion >> Marauder ... Well White Lions are a one-man army in the right hands, so that in itself is pretty nifty.

So overall Orders have more classes that would appeal to me as an introvert, because i would be able to solo-play them without relying on grp's and WB. So i would pick a class, that I would feel is fun (Do alot of damage/ healing and be selv reliant), but not necessarily benefit my realm. In the casses where the classes are pretty much on pair, I would pick Destros over Order because they just look cooler to me (which is a personal preference).

[Sarnai]

Spoiler:

I'll be honest, this thread has got me 90% towards quitting playing (I won't be missed, no one can have my stuff), because i only want to play order but its so frustrating how bad we (collectively) play. This post is going to be about the orvr zones.

Pushing mid zones and then putting no effort into the next zone, fighting at WCs instead of fighting for BO's/ranking up keeps, not putting full warbands on posterns during attacks and defences or managing to get people there who then fomo back to mid in dribs and drabs, so many people afk leeching renown in zones putting in no/minimal effort but not actually helping, some of these people don't even have the manners to get off their horses.

2 days ago BFP, Gnol Baraz finally taken after several hours of failed 'pushes', 180 order in zone, 80 destro... majority of order chase destro to WC and stay there, no one takes responsibility for capping the BOs in the badlands, 1fg destro recaps the undefended keep, took over 20 minutes to finally lock the zone down, **** embarrassing. This clusterfuck is becoming the normal as minimal effort is put in by majority of faction.

Order blob pushes when it has overwhelming numbers but doesn't learn, employs no good practice so when its anything like even numbers (and there I think we struggle due to class composition and certain class mechanics (GtdC)) there is no one taking responsibility for things like defending posterns while working on an inner to stop reinforcements getting in and virtually no one gives any consideration of the importance of BO control, another example Praag yesterday, order had twice the number and were all fighting over MS, destro just held the other 3 BOs all the time I was watching.

Very few people follow WB leaders, so very few people step up to lead, meaning most WBs in zones are pugs with no direction or being led by a leader who is trying but less than 50% of the wb listen so that gets frustrating, the few organised WBs appear to make a difference but often there seems to be too few of them to take ownership of the battlefield elements that require ownership.

Here I too am part of the problem, tried to lead pug WBs and got frustrated with (most) people not following so mostly just try to keep groups fixed and make sure people are at objective, joined a guild and had a few good rvr WBs and couple of good 3fg city premades but didn't like the guild politics or discord so left, I also don't attempt to join groups that require discord because I'm old and grumpy (that one is totally on me).

I think things like this, that happen all too frequently, are some of the biggest signs that Order is far more full of casuals than people want to believe. And I noticed this even before the peon wave. Destro would have group moving to BOs in the next zone before the previous one would be locked, ready for the flip to get the supply runs going while Order would just be letting themselves get farmed outside their WC by half their number, completely oblivious. Caledor and Eataine being the most glaring examples of this, but at the opening of a zone it's just 'run straight out of the warcamp and fight what's in front of you until someone says 'ram!' in chat.' I've seen Destro with 100% aao but all the BOs and leveling their keep uncontested because Order isn't doing anything but fighting at the nearest BO and usually doing a terrible job of it.

And all this just has to do with the mindset. Casuals are more numerous in Order, despite the faction overall being slightly outnumbered, and it makes for a tough time for the relatively few players trying to get something organized and going. And unfortunately, I nor anyone else should really be telling these people they're 'doing it wrong' or something similar : I'm not going to tell people who only log on sporadically for some random, fun rvr for an hour or two amidst their real world lives not to come here and do what makes them happy. LIttle spats over 'I'm here for pvp, I don't care about objectives' and 'sitting on flags is boring' are fairly common in Order chat.

All in all, to the quoted poster, yeah it's frustrating and it's great you've tried to lead warbands yourself and get people organized. But you chose Order, and this is just how we are.

[Telen]

Why would you say spirit damage sticks to a target better than corp?
Then you say Engies are better than Magus despite Engie doing Corp and Magus doing spirit.
So many strange inconsistancies with that post.

[Draugris]

I'll be honest, this thread has got me 90% towards quitting playing (I won't be missed, no one can have my stuff), because i only want to play order but its so frustrating how bad we (collectively) play. This post is going to be about the orvr zones.

To be fair, in the last few days there was not one single situation where i played in ORvR where Order did not have AAO Buff. I won´t say that Order play was top-notch, Mistakes were made etc. etc. no question but the Destros predominance in numbers were ridiculous. So i guess Destro has a lot of winning team joiners lately.

[cfabr]

Why would you say spirit damage sticks to a target better than corp?
Then you say Engies are better than Magus despite Engie doing Corp and Magus doing spirit.
So many strange inconsistancies with that post.

Sorry no offence, but you are missing my point. When you are compairring 2 mirror classes ... and only 2 mirror (because you cant compare Engi/Magus too WH/WE or AM/Sham). I would pick the class that suits my playstile as an introvert over classes that would benefit my realm - and the order realm just have more classes, that would suit my playstile compared too destro.

[TanithScout]

Its quite obvious that Order RDPS is cooler than order Melee so it gets picked and Destro Melee are super cool so they get picked a lot too. You have to be a certain kind of gobbo to pick a plinky Gobbo over a hulking, twirling choppa boi... Like you said. Luckily this is a private mod and the meta can be tweaked accordingly, if it was ever deemed necessary. This leads to the effect being carried on and on...

People pick what they like the look and feel of, unless you have a guild. Which brings me to you asking why organized play is organized and unorganized play is unorganized. I could explain, but I'll wait for the peer review.

So momentum... the melee ball will have momentum, like any game, so destro IN GENERAL have momentum which means their rdps can piggy back off this and do what they do while the meleeball does it's job. Order often lack for a solid frontline and melee classes (cos Dwarves and Elves are pretty fugly/dainty in WAR), but most importantly also lack players that know how to maintain and support that frontline and make it work. Which means the overly represented RDPS IN GENERAL cannot function meaning they get rolled.

Apart from flames, what do you expect from this thread? The weaknesses are glaringly obvious and are more of a meta issue, but mechanicly speaking, players are simply not good at their classes and people do not play to form a strong group, but a strong single character. In live you could farm 2 pug warbands with 6 players, here it literally doesn't matter because even if it was possible due to morale changes there aren't enough players with the capacity to do so. The 6v6 Scene is much more important as a result. Dedicated 6vx, 12vx groups are rare. despite the Player vs X encounters being more relevant to the endgame than 6v6, people enjoy that and its much easier to get into and your weaknesses are covered more as there is less situational awareness required.

So if veterans and competitive players are more interested in 6v6 than 6vx, the pug casuals whatever you want to call people who enjoy the RvR more than the instanced stuff, are left to re-learn the game. With a lack of guildwarbands setting an example due to being relatively unable to fight outnumbered (RELATIVELY is keyword, there are guilds that form up and launch ops in RvR lakes obviously including pugs) the Order, already perceptively weaker due to above points, are left to flounder. If there were more gwb's and organized closed warbands simply raising morale by taking on destro, Orderlings would 'git gudder' in general. Would they stop SC premades or roll RvR? Ofcourse not, a PickUpGroup isn't meant to, but its definitely a start.

Perhaps now that Slayers, a key Order tool that is underrpresented, will start to appear now with the buff. Maybe that will mean tanks will guard them, or players realise how strong they are when supported even in a PUG and we will see not only more Order melee but strong,er more organized Order melee that can dps more, sustain more, and last longer for the hordes of RDPS to do their job.

Or more likely, we'll read this last sentence and carry on exactly the way things have always been. Because its easier to complain than foster a shift. It isn't the quantity per se, of frontliners, its the quality and the support they receive.

Long live WAAAAAgh !!!