Debate about why Order is how it is.

[Nameless]

CW3 removed as well as renown immunity to root snare - RIP

Dest have the same

Buffed speed on pets (even gain on you mounted)
-fetch
-perma snare
Flying SMs with morale snare (big deal)
SW/BW rkds (order only)
Pounce (that is reliable compared to live)
SW shadow step

Bo snare shafted Kniggits intact (big deal)

Not same at all. More or less (some of these got nerfed so it is indeed less) orders had these perks on live and on live, destro groups didnt have any problem kitting, heck my shaman was near immortal. Here on ror my rp is flying around like ping-pong ball cos of all pulls.

The main problem is that destro realms got unique tools (and buffed all unique displacement tools that they had) that were supposed to be on orders side only and that made nearly impossible orvr small scale.

Whatever lack of skills, organization, whatever reasons you imagine, the reality is that small scale orvr for destro is much easier than orders could experience, so naturally part of the player base that like this playstyle prefer destro

[Dondabon]

None of those skills that you are whining about are unique for destro. Issue is that, for destro, each class has something, so each poses some threat.
On order side you have jump+pull+silence+KD+who knows what stacked on WL, which makes this class imbalanced and removes toolkit from other classes.
So fix is quite simple, remove some of those from WL and give to other classes and more will become viable.

[Nameless]

Pounce on destro is quite unique isnt it?

[Bozzax]

Id say kite was built on snare pots, CW3, RD, pockets and odjira on live for both sides

[NSKaneda]

Spoiler:

How does a IB stop GTtC in a pack of 20 destro melee? They immune to the pull? not that i know of.
RSW really.... from everything I have heard from both sides, this is one of the worst classes/specs in the game and that is your answer. Wow really reaching here.

IB: Speccable long range knockback that made all destro green with envy Knock down if choppa parries.
Also: oathstone+g&b right after punt cause des gonna be pissed - or shield sweep to push them back a bit. And start with taunt and challenge.

rSW: disarm. heal debuff. dot. debuff. dot. burst. No choppa
edit: engie disarms, I've forgotten that SWs got melee disarm. AMs can AP drain that choppa getting target from pulled teammate he's healing. So many ways

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What does pounce have to do with GTtC. Your squigs do that all the time also with better armor than a Wl and a self heal, and AOE that a SM doesnt really even have. Again a really pathetic reach.

WLs got aoe. And added bonus of being bane of healers and most will run or self heal giving your side pressure advantage (meanwhile invisible WHs flank front line and get on backs of heals). Pouncing SMs are for guard and added dmg. Also: WL&SMs jump from behind HTL tanks on /assist. They can't target in a fray.
And a charging squig - you see that a long way coming

Karak Norn way of doing things

Legitimate question: are you an idiot?

This is how we played. These are strategems used on Karak Norn and developed by duelling each other (disarm 1st on rSW comes from being pulled in duel). I give you these pieces of advice because I know it can be done because I've done it and I've seen it done, it's pretty basic guild warband playstyle, even newbies in rvr guilds had done it.

Tanks can taunt GTDC, its a channeled ability.

So any tank has 65ft range to stop a 40ft pull, at least on paper. Factor in EU/NA lag and you might have some issues, but GTDC is hardly the only victim to the lag problem.

SO we jsut have to keep 1 tank pre targeted and waiting for every choppa and spot him in the blob for when hes going to channel and stop him..... thats your solution. lol

PRE-targeted? LOL

Get your target off /assist. Call out on voice. Use bloody emote to coordinate with other warbands. This is basic stuff, come on...

[Nameless]

Id say kite was built on snare pots, CW3, RD, pockets and odjira on live for both sides

Plus anti crit and anti cc from sov, and these helped but now u dont have these realmswise tools plus buffs for all destro pulls and brand new pounce on tank alike char. So yea, hf

[Telen]

Pretty much every change on this server has been to the benefit of melee train. No idea why. They were already strong on live. But then Torque did have an anti ranged agenda.

[Bozzax]

Id say kite was built on snare pots, CW3, RD, pockets and odjira on live for both sides

Plus anti crit and anti cc from sov, and these helped but now u dont have these realmswise tools plus buffs for all destro pulls and brand new pounce on tank alike char. So yea, hf

So in the light that dess could build kite grps vs pounce, M3 root and rkds would you consider the real enabler for kite play be more bc of these tools then the gap closers being available to other side?

[Bozzax]

Pretty much every change on this server has been to the benefit of melee train. No idea why. They were already strong on live. But then Torque did have an anti ranged agenda.

Id say CW removal, BO snare nerf and turret range/dmg buffs etc says no.

Ranged snare on stealth and 2 more pounce etc says yes.

Mara pull is weaker, chp pull is stronger but it really was a 100% **** ability and still is mostly for pug bullyin or stringing together a longer 1v1 disabler

[malorn]

There's a flaw in this line of thinking that people need to be forced into playing specific classes, and that is the alternative to them having fun as a ranged class could be rolling a tank or healer.

Flaw or not, that's the game. There are plenty of games where all classes are jack-of-all-trades and more or less self sufficient. This game is not and I think alot play it because of that (I do at least).

Regarding population balance I think it will be much more static because of the heavy grind for endgame gear / pve etc. Back in the T3 and early T4 days I played both sides more or less daily but now I have completely abandoned order as I just do not have the time to rank up and gear characters on both sides anymore. I have the somewhat unpopular opinion that x-realming is mostly good for the game as a whole.

You need to read the context around that quote. People don't like being forced into doing things, and if they don't have fun playing something, the alternative is not only to go play what other people want them to play, it's also don't play at all, or to keep playing just to stick it to people who are hypocrites. On Order scenarios I frequently see things like "No healers again" (spoken by a white lion or engineer). People getting mad about the state of things but not willing to change them themselves, they just want other people to comply so they can keep playing the class they want to play. Everyone's in the same situation. They play what they want to play. If someone likes two classes about the same and one is more needed, then they could probably switch over, but I would expect such people already have.

The whole point of my post and recommendation is "less stick, more carrot" and lowering some barriers that might motivate against rerolling or switching.

But I don't much care either way. If you think the stick has been working out so well for you, keep trying it. I don't think we'd have this thread if that method was working.