Debate about why Order is how it is.

[jvlosky]

[/quote]
Sometimes it is almost like putting professional sports players who train multiple times a week... vs amateurs who dont even have the right kit and have never teamed before...

It is composition balance... not class or realm balance... of course the jaded edges and outcasts like Magi/engi/sw and even welf/wh should be finetuned and made more desirable so there are no outcasts but even if they was balanced... that doesnt address composition balance because that is a player made problem, and only leaders and players can resolve that.

Time of day and whats available will always effect composition its hard to have "perfect setup" (for both sides) given the time city sieges usually happen, but atleast have a plan of what you need/want and aim towards/work around it...

Played and won multiple on both sides I know how the grass is "class balance wise mechanically talking". Both sides got strength and weaknesses.
[/quote]

Dude are you seriously comparing real life to a video game?

In real life when I shoot for a basket I can do thousands of different minor adjustments, that I consciously perform, to increase my chance to make that basket. I can bend my elbow slightly to avoid a blocking defender on the shot, or pump fake a shot to draw out a jump. Those are under my control.

In this game when I swing at someone that whole portion as stated above is purely out of anyone's control and is dictated by math and class abilities. The game rolls to see if the enemy 'parried' or 'blocked' or what not compared to your roll, then all the math is calculated on resists/def vs the offensive attack. I am almost baffled I have to explain this. The core of what you do, is dictated by your class and abilities. I can train all day but it wont make one of my tactics increase my crit, because that is not how that works....

The data presented is indicative of a mechanical problem. You can't blame the players, people will instinctively go towards what nets them more gain with lesser effort, which makes them choose certain classes or sides more. No amount of 'training' will overcome that. When you have a win rate weighted so statistically significant in favor of Destro you can't discredit it with something along the lines of 'training' when you can only dictate so much of what your class is doing. Get real homie.




I would highly recommend everyone takes the time right now to level your 'mirror' class on the opposing faction to get a better sense of what is what. Or at the very least take the time to look at your 'mirror' class on the career builder on this website, it is a month out of date but still really accurate. I'm so tired of Destro being carried by their class and dictating 'skill' off of it. The issue goes deeper than that.

[Wam]

To give you an idea of how organised destro have to be: in the siege that just happened there were 4+ full destro 24-man warbands that didn't get into city and they all queued up as quick as possible, say nothing of the 12-mans, 6-mans and soloers.

How many order soloers got in?

Doesn't that just show that the veterans and city loggers are playing Destro more than Order if so many players had to sit out? Why do they do that? I'm not quickly jumping to "Destro is OP" or some low-effort like that, but surely you can see there's a choice out there being made?

People ride gravy trains alot in this game... people do not like to be the percieved "loser"... maybe people also get tired of how disorganised order is and seek something better because order doesnt get it's act together... (its been like this for years)

In ORVR order can ride big gravy train which favours the rdps... not so much when numbers are equal in cities you have to earn it

Use to be AAO police and search for the biggest number to fight and teach them a thing or two for being so "easymoders" in zergs...

Order got some good leaders in VII, Beavers, TC etc to name a few... but players do not join up to guilds as much as they should order side

More veterans and city loggers are playing destro... before influx of "population boom" it was in destros favour for many months... then most the new players join order, they got teething issues or "growing pains" as a result, cant expect them to be end game ready en masse after just one renown event vs people who have been playing for years and years... especially given how in disarray order's guilds have had also due to one reason or another and the lack of fresh blood allowing them to grow.

[boomcat]

Destro just looks cooler, after last patch with armor models, ive took a look on who i found cool looking to keep playing as my WH got shafted, IB looks horrible, Slayer is naked with weps. so ive made a female WP. dont wnna be knight, looks like a peacock who are to scared to get his armor dirty. "also feels like that in RvR" then i have destro.. Chosen, Fashion queens, holy they look badass in all tiers of gear. and warlord/tyrant ? oooof.. BO is just big bulky, so im playing those 2 the most. i like playing my BO most compared to chosen.. gameplay wise. but looks i would take chosen anyday.. and when im on my BO/chosen im no scared to push frontline alot, and when i dive. most other destros follows and order runs.. you dont see that with order.. most tanks stops HTL and nothing happens, because all there dmg is ranged.. so they dont need to push. where Destro charge in. rolfstomp and keep going. much more fun gameplay.

[Wam]

Dude are you seriously comparing real life to a video game?

In real life when I shoot for a basket I can do thousands of different minor adjustments, that I consciously perform, to increase my chance to make that basket. I can bend my elbow slightly to avoid a blocking defender on the shot, or pump fake a shot to draw out a jump. Those are under my control.

In this game when I swing at someone that whole portion as stated above is purely out of anyone's control and is dictated by math and class abilities. The game rolls to see if the enemy 'parried' or 'blocked' or what not compared to your roll, then all the math is calculated on resists/def vs the offensive attack. I am almost baffled I have to explain this. The core of what you do, is dictated by your class and abilities. I can train all day but it wont make one of my tactics increase my crit, because that is not how that works....

The data presented is indicative of a mechanical problem. You can't blame the players, people will instinctively go towards what nets them more gain with lesser effort, which makes them choose certain classes or sides more. No amount of 'training' will overcome that. When you have a win rate weighted so statistically significant in favor of Destro you can't discredit it with something along the lines of 'training' when you can only dictate so much of what your class is doing. Get real homie.




I would highly recommend everyone takes the time right now to level your 'mirror' class on the opposing faction to get a better sense of what is what. Or at the very least take the time to look at your 'mirror' class on the career builder on this website, it is a month out of date but still really accurate. I'm so tired of Destro being carried by their class and dictating 'skill' off of it. The issue goes deeper than that.

actually the point still stands... you see the reason 6 mans excel is because they play the most, together, and work on indivdual and teamplay cohesiveness so its all "instinct" and "reaction times" ... best guard swapping, best assisting, best postioning... you look at a pug group in comparison and they have no idea what you are talking (can you please guard XX and they totally ignore you 9 times out of 10... let alone follow)

The more someone plays, the more they can improve min max gear/renown and experience in different situations and knowing what to do instinctively... stacking different compos can improve your crit % etc...

I have 20 rank 40's mate... I have rr 80+ kotbs rr 80+ chosen (legacy when you get 1,000 renown for keeps lal) rr 80+ bork, rr80+ sorc, and many others...

You ignore other variables on order side, like solo mentality, and weak leadership in class composition on order... you have to be cruel to be kind, do you be cruel to the 23 by being kind to one, or kind to 23 by cruel to one... its a team game. The data is unreliable from "class balance mechanics point of view" it dont mean **** if your realm is going to go full retard and bring 4 archmage compositions in multiple instances... how the hell can anyone use that as a measuring stick when its beyond stupid and to do it over and over and over again, and yet complain about imbalances when keep doing same mistakes from organisational point of view and COMPLETELY FKING NEGLECT THE ORGANISING SIDE OF THINGS... which is maybe the most important part. HOW HARD IS IT TO UNDERSTAND NOT TO STACK LIABILITY CLASSES WHICH MOST PEOPLE CANNOT PLAY TO THE HIGHEST LEVEL BECAUSE ITS SQUISHY AND GOING TO BE FOCUSED BECAUSE DESTRO IS NOT DUMB?

But keep on bringing trash compositions and saying the other side is so clearly superior... yet order still gets wins with their stronger groups because they are playing the game right and bringing more stable and productive compositions.

There is huge difference between class balance and composition balance... order suck at composition balance, class balance is pretty even as it can be... If alot of bad AM's rerolled Warrior Priests would we even be having this conversation ... I think not, same if Engi's transfer into BW / SL / WL ... that is how you really improve your realm chances of winning... improve the player pool of the "superior" classes, reduce the player pool of the liability classes... but then people will say you play what is fun and that is correct, play the game how you want by all means, just dont go crying when it dont go right because you picked "fun/solo" over "fun/team/effective" that is the cross roads order is at.

[emiliorv]

I would highly recommend everyone takes the time right now to level your 'mirror' class on the opposing faction to get a better sense of what is what. Or at the very least take the time to look at your 'mirror' class on the career builder on this website, it is a month out of date but still really accurate. I'm so tired of Destro being carried by their class and dictating 'skill' off of it. The issue goes deeper than that.

I play (mostly) DoK dark rites spec => i will trade my full mastery trees+ tactics for the WP without any doubt.

[mubbl]

Yep, tup and haos boi band showed us, pnp that moral drop is just the one trick pony that it is, and always was. If the enemy is not willing to get droped by morals it will bearly happen.
Sure we did some other mistakes, but we also didnt faced an opponent of that quality for a long time, maybe never.
And tbh honest i see it the same, as wam order has a community problem.
@jvlosky sports are not so different from video games. In both you have mathematical dictated enviroments, eg bio physics etc. And a psycological component, called decision making.

[Wam]

Yep, tup and haos boi band showed us, pnp that moral drop is just the one trick pony that it is, and always was. If the enemy is not willing to get droped by morals it will bearly happen.
Sure we did some other mistakes, but we also didnt faced an opponent of that quality for a long time, maybe never.
And tbh honest i see it the same, as wam order has a community problem.
@jvlosky sports are not so different from video games. In both you have mathematical dictated enviroments, eg bio physics etc. And a psycological component, called decision making.

which shows the morale debate for what it is, meaningless and not the be all and end all can be countered (ESPECIALLY since Mara M drain has been guttered since and not fixed yet)... and I agree its a community problem and nothing new for order just magnified because of cities

i would like my chosen to provide +15% healing, my dok to 20% + healing too and also extra wounds for the group to survive morale bombs,
the extra buffs all the time from order makes up for it... easy to get morale bomb wrong or enemy avoid it due to better positioning or just better recovery.

I know the difference between high quality pug leader on destro and order... when they lead incognito on order they pulled hair out alot more than when on destro, too much lack of following and people doing random **** on order... instead of being "committed" and following like on destro (ofc you still get minority who have 0 brain or respect for leader but they easily replaced by more committed on destro) alot on order just quit after 1 or 2 wipe.

The main issue is most of order and their healers in particular being clueless in a positional sense (not adapting) bunch up to be morale bombed even though they know its coming, just like people who go into oil everytime on sieges... then complain its OP because they make mistakes. (Instead of acknowledge mistakes and adapt in future) the defeatist mentality serves no purpose yet so prevalent on order side (despite all the fort defenses and zerging of zones)

[jokerspsycho]

too much lack of following and people doing random **** on order... instead of being "committed" and following like on destro

Commitment. I think this one word is what decides the difference between an average group and a great group, the ability to execute a call no matter how stupid or prone to failure it is. Even if you are likely to fail sending ur WB into a situation, you are 100% going to fail if only half of you commit. Blindly following a good leader and giving 110% effort even on the dumbest calls is what differentiates "feeding the enemy morale" and a 3000iq play.

[billyk]

and when im on my BO/chosen im no scared to push frontline alot

Why would you be scared in a video game?

[EsthelielSunfury]

HOW HARD IS IT TO UNDERSTAND NOT TO STACK LIABILITY CLASSES WHICH MOST PEOPLE CANNOT PLAY TO THE HIGHEST LEVEL BECAUSE ITS SQUISHY AND GOING TO BE FOCUSED BECAUSE DESTRO IS NOT DUMB?

But keep on bringing trash compositions and saying the other side is so clearly superior... yet order still gets wins with their stronger groups because they are playing the game right and bringing more stable and productive compositions.

Interesting bit there - it doesn't seem like Destro is having any of these issues by stacking the mirror class to SW and AM. I've seen 5 shamans in City, top healing, well ahead of our overbuffed WPs. Try doing that with 5 AMs and see if you survive longer than 5 secs.

I've seen plenty of mSH stacking and completely obliterating the backline in a matter of seconds with their mobility - SWs don't even get invited, let alone stack them to attempt to do anything useful.

All of this, really all of this doesn't spark any kind of question from Destro players as to why the opposition is basically working with 5 classes? (KotBS, BW, SL, WP, RP) You never ask where are the other 7 classes from premade groups?

Like you gotta be really faction biased at this point, or narrow-minded to not accept that the competition is simply not there in any even-numbered fight.