Debate about why Order is how it is.

[kmark101]

You guys have it backwards.

People don’t play non-order tank classes because they are more attractive.

They don’t play tanks because order has 3 tank classes that are mediocre, while destro has 3 tank classes that excel at what they do. Because the tools given to destro tanks to actually tank are stronger than what order has available.

Pretty much this. Also, we can talk about "utilities" forever, but what really matters for most people is the damage done. This is why you see all 2h tanks, all dps healers, etc.. at some point people just want to do damage with their classes. Not every game mode, I'm sure all tanks are fine with SnB for massive orvr play, but at the end of the day sometimes they would just like to turn themselves into some dps char and slash around. With Order tanks it's not possible because they do **** to medicore damage. With Destro tanks its very much possible, all their classes have massive dps options: chosens with their newly received tactics, black orks always since the dawn of time, blackguards with single target + crimson death aoe spam. They DO damage. Order tank's dont, whatever they do (and knight nerf just made the things worse).

[agemennon675]

When Order brings the right DPS classes in a 2-2-2 and avoids the morale drop: https://i.imgur.com/QsC2pVC.jpg

SW dealing less dmg than a tank

[Jeliel80]

Poor Fenryl getting called out!

PS: so a couple order wb are doing alright, that should suffice that everything is fine.
Let's see how long it lasts, before somebody has to come to terms to the obvious imbalance...

[Manatikik]

Poor Fenryl getting called out!

PS: so a couple order wb are doing alright, that should suffice that everything is fine.
Let's see how long it lasts, before somebody has to come to terms to the obvious imbalance...

I'm not worried about it ; I play the worst class in the game, in cities, shotcalling off a ST dps, at 4 am. I just let big boys like Bombling/Halta (Halta Jr this time) carry me.

[Glorian]

Been dabbling in Order lately. You guys really need to execute the Engineer apologists in /advice tbh. Everytime you get that guy on the fence is like "what should I play" immediately roleplayers start piping up about how great dwarfs and Engineers are, that you should pick fun over what's needed drowning out the usual actual good advice of playing something useful. Now in a way they're right, it's a video game after all and some people just wanna be casuals instead of being competitive cause they work a 9-5 job and support their families and blah blah etc typical gamer dad excuse.

That's the kind of people giving newplayers advice on Order side, atleast on Destruction the roleplayers are just like "green is best" and everyone understands it's a meme and has a hearty cackle before proceeding to create something the faction actually needs. We need to execute these scum on Order tbh, time to put the gallows in Aldorf square to use and then make some real video gamers out of this rabble on Order.

Are you serious to execute players for telling other players to play the class they like?
Engis are FUN to play. In solo, in RvR.
Engis are lost in serious SCs and Engis don't get spots in city warband, thats why they all go into the pug city queues so destro 24warbands get an instance.
Or more correct, One (1) Engis gets a WB spot. But only if he is RR84 and in BIS gear.

[Stophy22]

To the guy saying order tanks do no damage and that’s why they aren’t played.

I personally don’t know how much dmg knights and ironbreakers do in comparison to Bg and Bo. But swordmasters do immense damage. I think what you said is pretty intelligent though. I think at the end of the day ppl just kinda wanna do dmg, at least the normal players of the game.

Whether it’s single target or aoe dmg that is lacking I’ve heard recently that ironbreakers are pretty abysmal and knights are too. Idk how credible this is as it’s just something I’ve heard but I think the initial thought of:

Tanks just wanna do dmg

Is correct.

Maybe give knights a similar tactic to turn all dmg into elemental dmg like chosens discord wings and idk what ironbreakers issue or problem is. I still remember Volgos videos and I’m not sure what’s changed since then.

If the topic still stands, why isn’t order playing tanks, I genuinely believe it’s because of such strong ranged alternatives. And what that one person said about the trifecta of strong classes (engi, WL, bw) explains really well an alternative reason.

[wraithghost]

They could always try to balance the game around what people actually play rather than what other people think they should be playing.

-Give Tinkerer Engi a taunt/challenge + guard and a talent that reduces dmg but increases armor.

-Reduce the Cooldown on ASW aoe from 6 hrs to 5 secs.

That's 2 things that would give order loads more tanks and more melee. I mean what would be the worst thing that could happen just to try a different approach like this out? Sure it would need balancing out but its not exactly there now.

[Tartuccio]

They could always try to balance the game around what people actually play rather than what other people think they should be playing.

-Give Tinkerer Engi a taunt/challenge + guard and a talent that reduces dmg but increases armor.

-Reduce the Cooldown on ASW aoe from 6 hrs to 5 secs.

That's 2 things that would give order loads more tanks and more melee. I mean what would be the worst thing that could happen just to try a different approach like this out? Sure it would need balancing out but its not exactly there now.

Considering WH/WE aoe tactic got nerfed from 9 targets to 3 with the presumed reasoning of them being stealth/ST classes, I wouldn't be surprised if it the same reasoning would apply to aSW. If they get any AoE buffs I'd be happy but it seems unlikely, even though the city meta, which is where you get the best gear, is primarily (not completely) based around AoE. And before anyone mentions it, I know it was a bug, but it was a bug for a while so no reason for it not to remain baseline.

But yeah, at least on the bright side as Glorian mentioned we can get solo pops on Order on the classes on which it's harder to get a city spot (not saying it's impossible, just harder and there's a finite number of spots for those classes unless you make your own group).

[kmark101]

Maybe give knights a similar tactic to turn all dmg into elemental dmg like chosens discord wings and idk what ironbreakers issue or problem is. I still remember Volgos videos and I’m not sure what’s changed since then.

If the topic still stands, why isn’t order playing tanks, I genuinely believe it’s because of such strong ranged alternatives. And what that one person said about the trifecta of strong classes (engi, WL, bw) explains really well an alternative reason.

It is explained in a recent topic about IB's warband viability, but to summarize it in short, the root of the problem is that IB (and knight, too) is focused on physical damage type, thats how it's skillset has been built. But in the last few years, the only thing that significantly increased on every piece of gear is the value of armor. Add that the popularity of armor talismans and armor potions and suddenly you can see why these classes have problems with damage: their hits are maximum 75% mitigated, even after the class built-in armor debuff tools. This was not the case when Volgo made his videos, as conq was the highest level gear and you could still debuff effectively. Meanwhile, magic damage types are capped at 45% resist. Not hard to see where the imbalance is and it is growing every day, every single piece of gear has more armor than the previous tier. In the special case of knight, they lost Runefang's WS ingredient, which was their answer to do physical damage first of all, so they got completely neutered.... and received a tactic which turns their damage to magical, while taking 15% damage at the same time... who would ever slot this I have no idea. And just to make it a bit more complicated, chosen's spirit damage type has 4 different classes on destro side who can debuff... while for elemental damage type... yea you guessed it, only the knight's own aura of -160. So this is why order tanks do no damage atm.

[emiliorv]

Is so fun when ppl talk about balance and only saying give class XXX the ability YYYY, buff this, buff, give, buff.....

the mentality that "ppl want to make dps" if its real, you are lost...when you play with a grp/wb mentality you have to fill the role that choose and let the others fill their. When you playing a support class you have to forget about dps (or at least be the last of your priorities), worring about dps playing a tank have no sense (IMO). If you sometimes feel the need to smash some heads around, roll a dps alt...