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Debate about why Order is how it is.

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Manatikik
Posts: 1093

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#571 » Wed May 27, 2020 7:21 pm

Bosli wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 6:17 pm
If some order players are still thinking that destro win just because they have so much better classes, maybe you should try checking out the time 10 minutes before the second fort falls, until city siege is up.
Destro /5 chat is spammed so hard by literally 98% of players either trying to fill their warband or find a warband that you have problems right-clicking someone's name.
Meanwhile, on order /5 - nothing. At least half of all instances are full pugs, others do their recruitment in discords and end up with only 12 or 18.

Sure, those "full pug" 24mans on destro aren't very strong - but at least they all go for a 2-2-2 setup, which is the reason they beat the order 14dps warbands every single time, and even have a chance beating some of the premade ones.
I think you're oversimplifying the root problem of WHY there are so many shitty set-ups for order. On destro all 3 tanks have a solid spot, on Order IB is useless in WB (outside of M2/Guard being there to just soak up damage); on Order there are 3 DPS classes that are WB appropriate with the ability to bring one CC Engi if you're doing a traditional BW stack where as on destro only WE is left out to dry (and less so than WH due to the stronger melee train on Destro can absorb the WE easier than Order can absorb a WH, typically). Healer wise both sides will need 4 WP/DoKs, Zealot is better than RP for cities (WoI is one of the two best morale drop counter abilities in the game, the other being Mara KD), and Shammy is 10x more accessible for City due to two things a) Waagh and Chop Fasta means you can have 100% uptime on Fury of Da Green without having to double up on a class and b) the morale pump is more easily put into the rotation every 5s without hurting your healing output and meshes better with destro's morale pumping abilities.

So this is why destro will win more instances just based on number of city viable classes dictates how many throw-away instances there are.
<Montague><Capulet>

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Trismegistus
Posts: 16

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#572 » Wed May 27, 2020 8:00 pm

videogamer wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 1:32 pm
It's not just the tanks, there is other factors in play that make the Order frontline unappealing.

Slayers are big babies swinging their rattles around and whatever piece of armor you equip it still looks like you just created the character at level 1. Witch Hunters are decent however Witch Elves remain superior aesthetically, not that anyone cares about stealth classes anyway. White Lions - well everyone knows what kind of player plays a White Lion, sure it's popular because it's overpowered but at the same time there are players will refuse to play simply because of that fact.

One issue is that Bright Wizards simply do way too much AOE damage. People are willing to look the other way when it comes to this because of Order being "weaker" in terms of compositions and in winrate but it is part of the reason why compositions are so static. The Bright Wizard is simply too good. Why would you roll a melee DPS when you can be a Bright Wizard which is significantly better at AOE DPS AND it's ranged? On Destro that difference is much narrower, Marauder, Squig, etc can be competitive in AOE damage to Sorceresses if not better. The Magus' damage profile might be garbage in that it's sustained static aoe damage but atleast numerically they match up with Sorcs. In any real solution you're going to have to entertain the idea that the Bright Wizard is not going stay as strong as it is.

The Shadow Warrior archetype is in every fantasy game and they're always hugely popular not much you can really do there and even despite Shadow Warriors being SIGNIFICANTLY more **** at everything in the game people still play them in droves. There isn't much you can do to solve this problem, I mean the class it's literally broken and absolute dogshit and people still play it.

If you were to summarize your arguments the Engineer personifies them perfectly. It is exactly the kind of class you play to play ranged, to play solo, and to play without teamwork. To be fair Destruction have the exact same thing in the Magus except the Magus isn't as cool in comparison with other Destruction classes. DPS slots are way more competitive on Destro because much more stuff is viable so Magus don't really get invited to anything which keeps their population in check. On Order you pick Bright Wizards, then Slayers, then...well whatever you can get basically if you don't have the above, Engineers know this and take advantage of it, you have to invite them because you don't have a choice, on Destruction Magus sit outside the Maw waiting for their solo queue to pop.

So what can be done about it? Well it depends on what exactly the developers are capable of doing. If they're capable and willing to create new gear models they can do a lot to remedy this. Balancewise the Swordmaster and Slayer are in a good spot but they in particular could use more imposing, cooler gear to entice people to play them. Gear progression is a huge factor in this game and it sucks when you get a new item only to find it looks exactly like your current items. You cannot tell the difference between a level 16 Swordmaster and one in Sovereign. The difference between a level 1 slayer and a RR80 Slayer in Sovereign is a totem/standard thing on their back.

You could make the Knight and Ironbreaker models slightly bigger (maybe 10-20% bigger). Afterall they're both clad head to toe in armor so it makes sense they'd be slightly bigger to be able to wear that weight, like how a Chosen is bigger than other Chaos humans. It doesn't make sense an armored knight is as lithe as an assassin, you'd expect he'd be a big meaty thiccboi. Maybe you can make more imposing helmets for the Ironbreaker so that there's some variety in what type of tin can you're wearing.
Blazing Sun Knights need more tall plumes on their helmets. More plumes = more prestigious and honoured, and that extends to a variety of Imperial soldiers in the lore.

Slayers need more badass trophy cosmetics. Gotrek's Lion pauldron is a good example of this.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D6kBr0DXsAA4S6f.jpg

Slayer armor is a bit unloreful, but Ungrim got away with wearing it as his role as king of a Karak.

Aesthetically, Destruction careers look edgy and hardy enough to warrant picking it in the case of new players and casuals.
Order options are very typical to the fantasy genre and look quite bland even with T4 armour on. Warhammer Fantasy's anti-hero and evil factions are simply more original in their aesthetic in comparison to their Tolkien-esque Order counterparts.
Last edited by Trismegistus on Wed May 27, 2020 8:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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courtsdad1
Posts: 118

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#573 » Wed May 27, 2020 8:08 pm

Manatikik wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 7:21 pm
Bosli wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 6:17 pm
If some order players are still thinking that destro win just because they have so much better classes, maybe you should try checking out the time 10 minutes before the second fort falls, until city siege is up.
Destro /5 chat is spammed so hard by literally 98% of players either trying to fill their warband or find a warband that you have problems right-clicking someone's name.
Meanwhile, on order /5 - nothing. At least half of all instances are full pugs, others do their recruitment in discords and end up with only 12 or 18.

Sure, those "full pug" 24mans on destro aren't very strong - but at least they all go for a 2-2-2 setup, which is the reason they beat the order 14dps warbands every single time, and even have a chance beating some of the premade ones.
I think you're oversimplifying the root problem of WHY there are so many shitty set-ups for order. On destro all 3 tanks have a solid spot, on Order IB is useless in WB (outside of M2/Guard being there to just soak up damage); on Order there are 3 DPS classes that are WB appropriate with the ability to bring one CC Engi if you're doing a traditional BW stack where as on destro only WE is left out to dry (and less so than WH due to the stronger melee train on Destro can absorb the WE easier than Order can absorb a WH, typically). Healer wise both sides will need 4 WP/DoKs, Zealot is better than RP for cities (WoI is one of the two best morale drop counter abilities in the game, the other being Mara KD), and Shammy is 10x more accessible for City due to two things a) Waagh and Chop Fasta means you can have 100% uptime on Fury of Da Green without having to double up on a class and b) the morale pump is more easily put into the rotation every 5s without hurting your healing output and meshes better with destro's morale pumping abilities.

So this is why destro will win more instances just based on number of city viable classes dictates how many throw-away instances there are.
Or you and others are over complicating why order losses.

It's about leadership, class choices, and organization...PERIOD. Just stop with the whining. I play order and its painfully obvious whats different between the two sides when you view them up close and it has zero to do with mechanics and everything to do with the wall of text whiners like yourself.

A few weeks ago I was farming Oppressor emblems and in a day amassed 420+ emblems ( just to give you ab idea of how much i played) and during that long playtime 5, yes 5 tanks guarded someone.

Yesterday a WB leader decides multiple times to spawn a ram with Destro having a 30 to 50 player number advantage. MULTIPLE TIMES followed by very predictable wipes that didn't even make it to the door. He then calls to attack a BO next to their WC which was followed by multiple wipes and a sad tier 4 version of Nordewatch as Destro pushed then backed up and as soon as we gathered at their BO would farm us. This was organized by a know Order WB LEADER against the advice of several people in region chat.

Complaining about melee trains while we could just as easily organize one. Running outside of chokepoints for no reason and getting farmed, pulling Lords with pets over and over, not pushing posterns, not pushing at all, MASSIVE afk problems ( again bad leadership. The last WB I led i booted 15 afkers and those that were left formed an awesome PUG that held off the enemy even though it was far from an optimal makeup) spawning rams the second you hit two stars even of vastly outnumbered, bringing too many ranged to a close quarter battle, whining about PUGS while in a PUG with the capability to roll a good premade, etc etc etc. Hell I watched a known popular WB leader sit outside of a keep with his WB in a blob watching the rest or Order getting picked off by small groups. I still don't have a clue what he was doing.

Our classes are comparable but our players and leadership are not even close. Take yourself over to a couple of Destro assaults and notice the difference in maturity, LEADERSHIP, communication amongst WB leaders, and bringing the right set up to a fight. Its vastly different at times than what we bring to the table.

I lead WB on both sides ( I stay on one side for months then switch over because of friends) and there is a glaring issue that has zero to do with mechanics. I feel really bad for the good order WB leaders why try and are competant but are basically a lone voice in the wilderness far too often.

So stop with the whining and start training people, kicking people who AFK and building proper WB's for situations.

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Trismegistus
Posts: 16

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#574 » Wed May 27, 2020 8:12 pm

courtsdad1 wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 8:08 pm
Manatikik wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 7:21 pm
Bosli wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 6:17 pm
If some order players are still thinking that destro win just because they have so much better classes, maybe you should try checking out the time 10 minutes before the second fort falls, until city siege is up.
Destro /5 chat is spammed so hard by literally 98% of players either trying to fill their warband or find a warband that you have problems right-clicking someone's name.
Meanwhile, on order /5 - nothing. At least half of all instances are full pugs, others do their recruitment in discords and end up with only 12 or 18.

Sure, those "full pug" 24mans on destro aren't very strong - but at least they all go for a 2-2-2 setup, which is the reason they beat the order 14dps warbands every single time, and even have a chance beating some of the premade ones.
I think you're oversimplifying the root problem of WHY there are so many shitty set-ups for order. On destro all 3 tanks have a solid spot, on Order IB is useless in WB (outside of M2/Guard being there to just soak up damage); on Order there are 3 DPS classes that are WB appropriate with the ability to bring one CC Engi if you're doing a traditional BW stack where as on destro only WE is left out to dry (and less so than WH due to the stronger melee train on Destro can absorb the WE easier than Order can absorb a WH, typically). Healer wise both sides will need 4 WP/DoKs, Zealot is better than RP for cities (WoI is one of the two best morale drop counter abilities in the game, the other being Mara KD), and Shammy is 10x more accessible for City due to two things a) Waagh and Chop Fasta means you can have 100% uptime on Fury of Da Green without having to double up on a class and b) the morale pump is more easily put into the rotation every 5s without hurting your healing output and meshes better with destro's morale pumping abilities.

So this is why destro will win more instances just based on number of city viable classes dictates how many throw-away instances there are.
Or you and others are over complicating why order losses.

It's about leadership, class choices, and organization...PERIOD. Just stop with the whining. I play order and its painfully obvious whats different between the two sides when you view them up close and it has zero to do with mechanics and everything to do with the wall of text whiners like yourself.

A few weeks ago I was farming Oppressor emblems and in a day amassed 420+ emblems ( just to give you ab idea of how much i played) and during that long playtime 5, yes 5 tanks guarded someone.

Yesterday a WB leader decides multiple times to spawn a ram with Destro having a 30 to 50 player number advantage. MULTIPLE TIMES followed by very predictable wipes that didn't even make it to the door. He then calls to attack a BO next to their WC which was followed by multiple wipes and a sad tier 4 version of Nordewatch as Destro pushed then backed up and as soon as we gathered at their BO would farm us. This was organized by a know Order WB LEADER against the advice of several people in region chat.

Complaining about melee trains while we could just as easily organize one. Running outside of chokepoints for no reason and getting farmed, pulling Lords with pets over and over, not pushing posterns, not pushing at all, MASSIVE afk problems ( again bad leadership. The last WB I led i booted 15 afkers and those that were left formed an awesome PUG that held off the enemy even though it was far from an optimal makeup) spawning rams the second you hit two stars even of vastly outnumbered, bringing too many ranged to a close quarter battle, whining about PUGS while in a PUG with the capability to roll a good premade, etc etc etc. Hell I watched a known popular WB leader sit outside of a keep with his WB in a blob watching the rest or Order getting picked off by small groups. I still don't have a clue what he was doing.

Our classes are comparable but our players and leadership are not even close. Take yourself over to a couple of Destro assaults and notice the difference in maturity, LEADERSHIP, communication amongst WB leaders, and bringing the right set up to a fight. Its vastly different at times than what we bring to the table.

I lead WB on both sides ( I stay on one side for months then switch over because of friends) and there is a glaring issue that has zero to do with mechanics. I feel really bad for the good order WB leaders why try and are competant but are basically a lone voice in the wilderness far too often.

So stop with the whining and start training people, kicking people who AFK and building proper WB's for situations.
If that is the case, why is it then, that incompetent players have a tendency to play on Order? If general incompetence (including both leadership and average players in RvR) is the issue, then why doesn't Destruction experience the same problems as you had described?

I am genuinely curious about this, as I have noticed the same tendencies for solo-play on Order teams and warbands.
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WH (40/61) SM (40/19) KOTBS (37) IB (32) WP (40/28) BG (35) SH (40/49)

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CountTalabecland
Posts: 524

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#575 » Wed May 27, 2020 8:42 pm

Spoiler:
Trismegistus wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 8:12 pm
courtsdad1 wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 8:08 pm
Manatikik wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 7:21 pm


I think you're oversimplifying the root problem of WHY there are so many shitty set-ups for order. On destro all 3 tanks have a solid spot, on Order IB is useless in WB (outside of M2/Guard being there to just soak up damage); on Order there are 3 DPS classes that are WB appropriate with the ability to bring one CC Engi if you're doing a traditional BW stack where as on destro only WE is left out to dry (and less so than WH due to the stronger melee train on Destro can absorb the WE easier than Order can absorb a WH, typically). Healer wise both sides will need 4 WP/DoKs, Zealot is better than RP for cities (WoI is one of the two best morale drop counter abilities in the game, the other being Mara KD), and Shammy is 10x more accessible for City due to two things a) Waagh and Chop Fasta means you can have 100% uptime on Fury of Da Green without having to double up on a class and b) the morale pump is more easily put into the rotation every 5s without hurting your healing output and meshes better with destro's morale pumping abilities.

So this is why destro will win more instances just based on number of city viable classes dictates how many throw-away instances there are.
Or you and others are over complicating why order losses.

It's about leadership, class choices, and organization...PERIOD. Just stop with the whining. I play order and its painfully obvious whats different between the two sides when you view them up close and it has zero to do with mechanics and everything to do with the wall of text whiners like yourself.

A few weeks ago I was farming Oppressor emblems and in a day amassed 420+ emblems ( just to give you ab idea of how much i played) and during that long playtime 5, yes 5 tanks guarded someone.

Yesterday a WB leader decides multiple times to spawn a ram with Destro having a 30 to 50 player number advantage. MULTIPLE TIMES followed by very predictable wipes that didn't even make it to the door. He then calls to attack a BO next to their WC which was followed by multiple wipes and a sad tier 4 version of Nordewatch as Destro pushed then backed up and as soon as we gathered at their BO would farm us. This was organized by a know Order WB LEADER against the advice of several people in region chat.

Complaining about melee trains while we could just as easily organize one. Running outside of chokepoints for no reason and getting farmed, pulling Lords with pets over and over, not pushing posterns, not pushing at all, MASSIVE afk problems ( again bad leadership. The last WB I led i booted 15 afkers and those that were left formed an awesome PUG that held off the enemy even though it was far from an optimal makeup) spawning rams the second you hit two stars even of vastly outnumbered, bringing too many ranged to a close quarter battle, whining about PUGS while in a PUG with the capability to roll a good premade, etc etc etc. Hell I watched a known popular WB leader sit outside of a keep with his WB in a blob watching the rest or Order getting picked off by small groups. I still don't have a clue what he was doing.

Our classes are comparable but our players and leadership are not even close. Take yourself over to a couple of Destro assaults and notice the difference in maturity, LEADERSHIP, communication amongst WB leaders, and bringing the right set up to a fight. Its vastly different at times than what we bring to the table.

I lead WB on both sides ( I stay on one side for months then switch over because of friends) and there is a glaring issue that has zero to do with mechanics. I feel really bad for the good order WB leaders why try and are competant but are basically a lone voice in the wilderness far too often.

So stop with the whining and start training people, kicking people who AFK and building proper WB's for situations.
If that is the case, why is it then, that incompetent players have a tendency to play on Order? If general incompetence (including both leadership and average players in RvR) is the issue, then why doesn't Destruction experience the same problems as you had described?

I am genuinely curious about this, as I have noticed the same tendencies for solo-play on Order teams and warbands.
True that about the guard problem. I see it constantly with lolzdps tanks and even SnB just running in again and again like an npc to try to solo target enemy DPS. When this game out in 08 I was 15 and didn't know much better.

When I joined RoR in 2017 it was running as an SnB IB with Bitterstones that really taught me about the game and good tanking. I think the Order pug mindset just kind of snowballs and with no guild involvement ppl never get a good instructional influence on how to play better. Its not easy to quantify but with Order if you have an open wb at least 50% will be RDPS and randoms that follow the zerg and will not respond to chat.
Brynnoth Goldenbeard (40/74) (IB) -- Rundin Fireheart (40/50) (RP) -- Ungrinn (40/35) (Engi)-- Bramm Bloodaxe (40/77) (Slayer) and a few Empire characters here or there, maybe even an elf.

Esmeralda
Posts: 16

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#576 » Wed May 27, 2020 8:47 pm

Trismegistus wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 8:12 pm
courtsdad1 wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 8:08 pm
Manatikik wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 7:21 pm


I think you're oversimplifying the root problem of WHY there are so many shitty set-ups for order. On destro all 3 tanks have a solid spot, on Order IB is useless in WB (outside of M2/Guard being there to just soak up damage); on Order there are 3 DPS classes that are WB appropriate with the ability to bring one CC Engi if you're doing a traditional BW stack where as on destro only WE is left out to dry (and less so than WH due to the stronger melee train on Destro can absorb the WE easier than Order can absorb a WH, typically). Healer wise both sides will need 4 WP/DoKs, Zealot is better than RP for cities (WoI is one of the two best morale drop counter abilities in the game, the other being Mara KD), and Shammy is 10x more accessible for City due to two things a) Waagh and Chop Fasta means you can have 100% uptime on Fury of Da Green without having to double up on a class and b) the morale pump is more easily put into the rotation every 5s without hurting your healing output and meshes better with destro's morale pumping abilities.

So this is why destro will win more instances just based on number of city viable classes dictates how many throw-away instances there are.
Or you and others are over complicating why order losses.

It's about leadership, class choices, and organization...PERIOD. Just stop with the whining. I play order and its painfully obvious whats different between the two sides when you view them up close and it has zero to do with mechanics and everything to do with the wall of text whiners like yourself.

A few weeks ago I was farming Oppressor emblems and in a day amassed 420+ emblems ( just to give you ab idea of how much i played) and during that long playtime 5, yes 5 tanks guarded someone.

Yesterday a WB leader decides multiple times to spawn a ram with Destro having a 30 to 50 player number advantage. MULTIPLE TIMES followed by very predictable wipes that didn't even make it to the door. He then calls to attack a BO next to their WC which was followed by multiple wipes and a sad tier 4 version of Nordewatch as Destro pushed then backed up and as soon as we gathered at their BO would farm us. This was organized by a know Order WB LEADER against the advice of several people in region chat.

Complaining about melee trains while we could just as easily organize one. Running outside of chokepoints for no reason and getting farmed, pulling Lords with pets over and over, not pushing posterns, not pushing at all, MASSIVE afk problems ( again bad leadership. The last WB I led i booted 15 afkers and those that were left formed an awesome PUG that held off the enemy even though it was far from an optimal makeup) spawning rams the second you hit two stars even of vastly outnumbered, bringing too many ranged to a close quarter battle, whining about PUGS while in a PUG with the capability to roll a good premade, etc etc etc. Hell I watched a known popular WB leader sit outside of a keep with his WB in a blob watching the rest or Order getting picked off by small groups. I still don't have a clue what he was doing.

Our classes are comparable but our players and leadership are not even close. Take yourself over to a couple of Destro assaults and notice the difference in maturity, LEADERSHIP, communication amongst WB leaders, and bringing the right set up to a fight. Its vastly different at times than what we bring to the table.

I lead WB on both sides ( I stay on one side for months then switch over because of friends) and there is a glaring issue that has zero to do with mechanics. I feel really bad for the good order WB leaders why try and are competant but are basically a lone voice in the wilderness far too often.

So stop with the whining and start training people, kicking people who AFK and building proper WB's for situations.
If that is the case, why is it then, that incompetent players have a tendency to play on Order? If general incompetence (including both leadership and average players in RvR) is the issue, then why doesn't Destruction experience the same problems as you had described?

I am genuinely curious about this, as I have noticed the same tendencies for solo-play on Order teams and warbands.
Curious about this too. I played Order tank for 2 months and then just gave up. Nonexistent frontline, pouncy glass cannon solo roam noob killing WLs who don't need no guard, engi zerg, loser whiny mentality and constant complaining about how op destro is. I play Destro now and don't plan going back. Of course there are stupid people on destro side too (many play both sides, I know) but in general its a lot more enjoyable. Feels bad for Order tho but seems like this side is beyond saving despite having some of the most op classes currently.

User avatar
Manatikik
Posts: 1093

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#577 » Wed May 27, 2020 10:32 pm

courtsdad1 wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 8:08 pm
Manatikik wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 7:21 pm
Bosli wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 6:17 pm
If some order players are still thinking that destro win just because they have so much better classes, maybe you should try checking out the time 10 minutes before the second fort falls, until city siege is up.
Destro /5 chat is spammed so hard by literally 98% of players either trying to fill their warband or find a warband that you have problems right-clicking someone's name.
Meanwhile, on order /5 - nothing. At least half of all instances are full pugs, others do their recruitment in discords and end up with only 12 or 18.

Sure, those "full pug" 24mans on destro aren't very strong - but at least they all go for a 2-2-2 setup, which is the reason they beat the order 14dps warbands every single time, and even have a chance beating some of the premade ones.
I think you're oversimplifying the root problem of WHY there are so many shitty set-ups for order. On destro all 3 tanks have a solid spot, on Order IB is useless in WB (outside of M2/Guard being there to just soak up damage); on Order there are 3 DPS classes that are WB appropriate with the ability to bring one CC Engi if you're doing a traditional BW stack where as on destro only WE is left out to dry (and less so than WH due to the stronger melee train on Destro can absorb the WE easier than Order can absorb a WH, typically). Healer wise both sides will need 4 WP/DoKs, Zealot is better than RP for cities (WoI is one of the two best morale drop counter abilities in the game, the other being Mara KD), and Shammy is 10x more accessible for City due to two things a) Waagh and Chop Fasta means you can have 100% uptime on Fury of Da Green without having to double up on a class and b) the morale pump is more easily put into the rotation every 5s without hurting your healing output and meshes better with destro's morale pumping abilities.

So this is why destro will win more instances just based on number of city viable classes dictates how many throw-away instances there are.
Or you and others are over complicating why order losses.

It's about leadership, class choices, and organization...PERIOD. Just stop with the whining. I play order and its painfully obvious whats different between the two sides when you view them up close and it has zero to do with mechanics and everything to do with the wall of text whiners like yourself.

A few weeks ago I was farming Oppressor emblems and in a day amassed 420+ emblems ( just to give you ab idea of how much i played) and during that long playtime 5, yes 5 tanks guarded someone.

Yesterday a WB leader decides multiple times to spawn a ram with Destro having a 30 to 50 player number advantage. MULTIPLE TIMES followed by very predictable wipes that didn't even make it to the door. He then calls to attack a BO next to their WC which was followed by multiple wipes and a sad tier 4 version of Nordewatch as Destro pushed then backed up and as soon as we gathered at their BO would farm us. This was organized by a know Order WB LEADER against the advice of several people in region chat.

Complaining about melee trains while we could just as easily organize one. Running outside of chokepoints for no reason and getting farmed, pulling Lords with pets over and over, not pushing posterns, not pushing at all, MASSIVE afk problems ( again bad leadership. The last WB I led i booted 15 afkers and those that were left formed an awesome PUG that held off the enemy even though it was far from an optimal makeup) spawning rams the second you hit two stars even of vastly outnumbered, bringing too many ranged to a close quarter battle, whining about PUGS while in a PUG with the capability to roll a good premade, etc etc etc. Hell I watched a known popular WB leader sit outside of a keep with his WB in a blob watching the rest or Order getting picked off by small groups. I still don't have a clue what he was doing.

Our classes are comparable but our players and leadership are not even close. Take yourself over to a couple of Destro assaults and notice the difference in maturity, LEADERSHIP, communication amongst WB leaders, and bringing the right set up to a fight. Its vastly different at times than what we bring to the table.

I lead WB on both sides ( I stay on one side for months then switch over because of friends) and there is a glaring issue that has zero to do with mechanics. I feel really bad for the good order WB leaders why try and are competant but are basically a lone voice in the wilderness far too often.

So stop with the whining and start training people, kicking people who AFK and building proper WB's for situations.

Well thats a great and mighty soap box of yours but kinda preaching to the choir, chief. I run /5 WB in city constantly and at a 90%+ Winrate (though last two weeks we had a rough patch due to bad heals/dps and we may be in the 80's now). And like I've said before we fight premades a majority of the time - Order has plenty of tools to beat destro its just condensed to fewer classes.
<Montague><Capulet>

courtsdad1
Posts: 118

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#578 » Wed May 27, 2020 11:20 pm

Manatikik wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 10:32 pm
courtsdad1 wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 8:08 pm
Manatikik wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 7:21 pm


I think you're oversimplifying the root problem of WHY there are so many shitty set-ups for order. On destro all 3 tanks have a solid spot, on Order IB is useless in WB (outside of M2/Guard being there to just soak up damage); on Order there are 3 DPS classes that are WB appropriate with the ability to bring one CC Engi if you're doing a traditional BW stack where as on destro only WE is left out to dry (and less so than WH due to the stronger melee train on Destro can absorb the WE easier than Order can absorb a WH, typically). Healer wise both sides will need 4 WP/DoKs, Zealot is better than RP for cities (WoI is one of the two best morale drop counter abilities in the game, the other being Mara KD), and Shammy is 10x more accessible for City due to two things a) Waagh and Chop Fasta means you can have 100% uptime on Fury of Da Green without having to double up on a class and b) the morale pump is more easily put into the rotation every 5s without hurting your healing output and meshes better with destro's morale pumping abilities.

So this is why destro will win more instances just based on number of city viable classes dictates how many throw-away instances there are.
Or you and others are over complicating why order losses.

It's about leadership, class choices, and organization...PERIOD. Just stop with the whining. I play order and its painfully obvious whats different between the two sides when you view them up close and it has zero to do with mechanics and everything to do with the wall of text whiners like yourself.

A few weeks ago I was farming Oppressor emblems and in a day amassed 420+ emblems ( just to give you ab idea of how much i played) and during that long playtime 5, yes 5 tanks guarded someone.

Yesterday a WB leader decides multiple times to spawn a ram with Destro having a 30 to 50 player number advantage. MULTIPLE TIMES followed by very predictable wipes that didn't even make it to the door. He then calls to attack a BO next to their WC which was followed by multiple wipes and a sad tier 4 version of Nordewatch as Destro pushed then backed up and as soon as we gathered at their BO would farm us. This was organized by a know Order WB LEADER against the advice of several people in region chat.

Complaining about melee trains while we could just as easily organize one. Running outside of chokepoints for no reason and getting farmed, pulling Lords with pets over and over, not pushing posterns, not pushing at all, MASSIVE afk problems ( again bad leadership. The last WB I led i booted 15 afkers and those that were left formed an awesome PUG that held off the enemy even though it was far from an optimal makeup) spawning rams the second you hit two stars even of vastly outnumbered, bringing too many ranged to a close quarter battle, whining about PUGS while in a PUG with the capability to roll a good premade, etc etc etc. Hell I watched a known popular WB leader sit outside of a keep with his WB in a blob watching the rest or Order getting picked off by small groups. I still don't have a clue what he was doing.

Our classes are comparable but our players and leadership are not even close. Take yourself over to a couple of Destro assaults and notice the difference in maturity, LEADERSHIP, communication amongst WB leaders, and bringing the right set up to a fight. Its vastly different at times than what we bring to the table.

I lead WB on both sides ( I stay on one side for months then switch over because of friends) and there is a glaring issue that has zero to do with mechanics. I feel really bad for the good order WB leaders why try and are competant but are basically a lone voice in the wilderness far too often.

So stop with the whining and start training people, kicking people who AFK and building proper WB's for situations.

Well thats a great and mighty soap box of yours but kinda preaching to the choir, chief. I run /5 WB in city constantly and at a 90%+ Winrate (though last two weeks we had a rough patch due to bad heals/dps and we may be in the 80's now). And like I've said before we fight premades a majority of the time - Order has plenty of tools to beat destro its just condensed to fewer classes.
Again, youre whining. Deal with it and stop pretending its mechanics. You admit as much above. You are not a victim no matter how many ways you try to reword it.

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Manatikik
Posts: 1093

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#579 » Thu May 28, 2020 12:31 am

courtsdad1 wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 11:20 pm
Manatikik wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 10:32 pm
courtsdad1 wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 8:08 pm


Or you and others are over complicating why order losses.

It's about leadership, class choices, and organization...PERIOD. Just stop with the whining. I play order and its painfully obvious whats different between the two sides when you view them up close and it has zero to do with mechanics and everything to do with the wall of text whiners like yourself.

A few weeks ago I was farming Oppressor emblems and in a day amassed 420+ emblems ( just to give you ab idea of how much i played) and during that long playtime 5, yes 5 tanks guarded someone.

Yesterday a WB leader decides multiple times to spawn a ram with Destro having a 30 to 50 player number advantage. MULTIPLE TIMES followed by very predictable wipes that didn't even make it to the door. He then calls to attack a BO next to their WC which was followed by multiple wipes and a sad tier 4 version of Nordewatch as Destro pushed then backed up and as soon as we gathered at their BO would farm us. This was organized by a know Order WB LEADER against the advice of several people in region chat.

Complaining about melee trains while we could just as easily organize one. Running outside of chokepoints for no reason and getting farmed, pulling Lords with pets over and over, not pushing posterns, not pushing at all, MASSIVE afk problems ( again bad leadership. The last WB I led i booted 15 afkers and those that were left formed an awesome PUG that held off the enemy even though it was far from an optimal makeup) spawning rams the second you hit two stars even of vastly outnumbered, bringing too many ranged to a close quarter battle, whining about PUGS while in a PUG with the capability to roll a good premade, etc etc etc. Hell I watched a known popular WB leader sit outside of a keep with his WB in a blob watching the rest or Order getting picked off by small groups. I still don't have a clue what he was doing.

Our classes are comparable but our players and leadership are not even close. Take yourself over to a couple of Destro assaults and notice the difference in maturity, LEADERSHIP, communication amongst WB leaders, and bringing the right set up to a fight. Its vastly different at times than what we bring to the table.

I lead WB on both sides ( I stay on one side for months then switch over because of friends) and there is a glaring issue that has zero to do with mechanics. I feel really bad for the good order WB leaders why try and are competant but are basically a lone voice in the wilderness far too often.

So stop with the whining and start training people, kicking people who AFK and building proper WB's for situations.

Well thats a great and mighty soap box of yours but kinda preaching to the choir, chief. I run /5 WB in city constantly and at a 90%+ Winrate (though last two weeks we had a rough patch due to bad heals/dps and we may be in the 80's now). And like I've said before we fight premades a majority of the time - Order has plenty of tools to beat destro its just condensed to fewer classes.
Again, youre whining. Deal with it and stop pretending its mechanics. You admit as much above. You are not a victim no matter how many ways you try to reword it.


Wait where am I a victim? I'm told all the time how i'm a bully; I'm very self aware.

Sounds like you need to take a chill pill, man, and get gud.
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Bosli
Posts: 70

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#580 » Thu May 28, 2020 1:10 am

Manatikik wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 10:32 pm
I run /5 WB in city constantly and at a 90%+ Winrate
That is also one of the things that all order try making their point when it's simply not true. I am 100% certain that you have a pool of certain players which you always take in your warband if possible and fill the remaining spots. That is no different for destro warbands. Stop acting like all destro warbands are the same 24 players for every city siege - it's simply not possible due to the random timing of city sieges.
Comparing to my warband which is one of the few that order seems to cry the most of, most of the times we maybe have 18 of our regulars, often just about 12, then the rest is filled with alliance or /5. It is not really that much more premade than your "/5 pug warband", that every single order premade claims they are - nor are we going for the same classes setup, like AT ALL. We take people we know or that we had before as long as it's 2-2-2 and not too many unstackable classes (Magus, Sham, even Choppa bc. morales), and just MAKE IT WORK by adjusting tactics and engages, and yes we lose sometimes because of our own randomness/puginess.

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