Debate about why Order is how it is.

[wargrimnir]

The pugs who brainlessly spam RDPS are not bright enough or care enough to read these walls of text ppl are putting here so this whole thread is wasted time.

Only chance to save Order is to implement hard locks on playing so many RDPS. Maybe ppl would mass quit if that happened and they couldn't play their SW Legolas wannabe, idk.

Its that or accept that you have a massive handicap playing pug order/non-premade and its never going to change. Its been what, 12 years? You're not going to be able to reason idiots into not being idiots, "they play what they want to play."

Buff Shadow Warrior range specs

[teiloh]

Still this is 20% more healing that you get for playing in mid range and eating of all the fluf aoe damage in 50-60 fts around the fight. And this 20% do add to 25% RP buff and 15% Knight buff.

Destro has the 25% from Zealot so that's balanced out. In city/warband there's no such thing as "fluff AOE" from Destro, that's a luxury Destro gets fighting Order. Destro blobs have so much AOE that even the "fluff DPS" from melee Squigs and Blackguards will nail you for 1k+ DPS. The WP tactic is not exceptional. Good, but there are other ways to increase healing output.

Are you talking about a city warband or orvr warband? Because in the city 15% outgoing healdebuff on one healer is a very strong thing since it will be stacked with 50% incoming heal debuff from a melee dps.
The kotbs has toolkit of BG with +CTBC, -10% to mitingation, 15% outgoing healdebuff auras. It's very strong to build around.

It would be if the outgoing heal debuff stacked, but Destro already has the best outgoing heal debuff in the game on BGs.

Khaine's Withdrawal M2 has 1 minute cool down and takes siphon/fm slot. The group will not have any tools(siphon,fm) to recover from enemy morale drop/slayer bomb? So you think you can use an ability with 1 min CD to remove an ability with 10/30 sec cd ? That makes no sense to me.

Again, this is Order we're talking about - Order doesn't have a viable morale drop, unless you're talking Burning Head, in which case Siphon isn't going to be much of a solution either. If they're running BW with M2, which is easily countered, you can switch back to Siphon. And KW can clean off 100+ IDs in theory.

Slayer has 50% heal debuff with 10 seconds CD, BW has a 50% heal debuff wtih 30 sec CD, WH has a 50% heal debuff with a bullet, Knight has an outgoing heal debuff with an aura.

KW doesn't just clean heal debuff. It cleans Shatter Limbs, almost all snares, everything all Order RDPS and MDPS except WLs put on (DoTs, debuffs, etc). You not only have this as an option but also standard cleanses.

For heal debuffs, why would Destro healers ever be clumped up within range of a Knight? I'm saying an incoming debuff aura (Chosen) is much more effective than outgoing debuff (Knight) because of how players are positioned. The BG is far superior being able to move back and forth hitting the highest value healers and burying their heal debuff in dozens of other Destro debuffs. It even tacks on a stacking WP debuff. The IB version doesn't come close.

Hmm okay.
Firstly I doubt that rSH warband will win anything in a city siege. Because this warband will do no damage and at the time when squigs will reach M4 half of the warband will be dead from slayers/wls that don't care about slows.
rSH have no burst damage. I suggest you to try IB fun warband next time you play and see what you can do with 75 feet telegraph M4.
In orvr yes, it might work in funnels but anything that can spread wont die to it. This M4 has 20(TWENTY)ft radius.

Even a full range spec SH has respectable melee with just core tactics and abilities. However you can still spec Lots of Shootin and go high up in the melee tree, even at low rank. The SH is simply an overloaded, overtuned class:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... nknown.png

Secondly marauder's new morale drain is a telegraph ability that hits in front of him in 40 feet range that require him to stance dance. Marauder can't do aoe damage in brutality and that's more important he lose his defensive buff of the gift of monstrosity that make's him very vulnerable. It can be punished for it and it pays his damage output for it.

BW bomb wasn't a problem indeed, the problem was to find and keep a good dps zealot player and 2-3 marauders. And without them you couldn't compete vs 6-7 BW + Slayer stacks. This was the meta, not problem.

I believe my post was about Maras using their M2s. I simply can't fathom Destro complaining about stacking 6-7 Wizards and then claiming it's hard to find 2-3 Marauders, who could not only keep you at 00 Morale but also 00AP if they felt like it - and also have a 1200 damage bomb of their own, along with Witch Elves (who also have a morale builder). What happened back then was in no way a parallel to what Order is facing today. Destro has literally millions of options to deal with the BW M2 "bomb" that they've been complaining since early live days.

Your meta now is to bring one AM to the warband to pump one or two players. You don't need full morale drop on order to counter destro morale drop. But the grass is greener on other side, isn't it?

It really isn't. So Destro is going to sit there and let an AM plant and cast for 10-15 seconds for 5 pumps? While putting out no reasonable healing? To get what one Shaman gets in one GCDs? And what are these one or two morales you're pumping that would be worth it?

[Starx]

The pugs who brainlessly spam RDPS are not bright enough or care enough to read these walls of text ppl are putting here so this whole thread is wasted time.

Only chance to save Order is to implement hard locks on playing so many RDPS. Maybe ppl would mass quit if that happened and they couldn't play their SW Legolas wannabe, idk.

Its that or accept that you have a massive handicap playing pug order/non-premade and its never going to change. Its been what, 12 years? You're not going to be able to reason idiots into not being idiots, "they play what they want to play."

I would take a pug RDPS player over a pug MDPS player every single time no questions asked. They don't need a guard and 2 healers to do something, i lose most of my pug scs on destro bc we have a bunch of choppas and maras without guard and they just either sit in spawn or feed over and over again, at least if they were on a range dps they could at least try to make something happen.

[Omegus]

Changing topics: have any of you ever wondered who came up with the Altdorf stage 3 where both Lords move to the throne room forcing Order to enter into a smaller space right next to the Destro spawn? You know, the Order ranged-heavy faction pushing into half the map and corralled in with the Destro melee-centric faction. Things like THAT contribute to the City balance issues... and could be fixed if the devs ever got mildly interested.

Amusingly order actually have a bigger advantage compared to destro if the fight ends up in the palace/citadel. When destro are attacking it is impossible to wipe order and keep them pinned inside their spawn as the order palace spawn area is MASSIVE and order can trivially walk out at any point. Compare this to the destro spawn area when defending the citadel and it is much easier for the order attackers to keep them spawn camped by AOEing the tiny exit portal (I've been on the receiving end of that spawn camp and it's not great to be pinned down inside your own palace). The reason the kings fight inside the palace rather than out in the courtyard is to try and compensate for the large spawn advantage order have on that section of the map. In addition, the fight over the king only matters when the champions vanish one way or another (dead or timed out).

The stage 3 palace is a terribly designed map area for PVP to take place in, but the ROR devs are stuck with it .

Also, you seem to be asking for balance based on class preference (order being "ranged-heavy" when it has the same number of ranged classes as destro). The problem is the city maps absolutely suck for ranged classes in almost all areas, and that applies for ranged classes on both sides. I've seen some Engineers be an absolute nightmare in the Slaanesh area in IC by making use of the high ground and the time it takes to get there but that's about the only good spot.

[Omegus]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... nknown.png

Sorting by deathblows, sorc is top
Top 3 damage being BW, Mara and SL
DOK getting more DBs than the SW
Losing to Zunig

Looks like 3-4 under-performing order DPS players on that side. Also, unless it's a total meme it's polite to blank out the names

[Trismegistus]

The pugs who brainlessly spam RDPS are not bright enough or care enough to read these walls of text ppl are putting here so this whole thread is wasted time.

Only chance to save Order is to implement hard locks on playing so many RDPS. Maybe ppl would mass quit if that happened and they couldn't play their SW Legolas wannabe, idk.

Its that or accept that you have a massive handicap playing pug order/non-premade and its never going to change. Its been what, 12 years? You're not going to be able to reason idiots into not being idiots, "they play what they want to play."

Overall, the issue seems to be built into the game itself. Instead of receiving three mDPS options in accordance with light, medium, and heavy armour usage, we instead have two squishy careers and one decent option that flies over a lot of heads.

[Kwatchi]

Amusingly order actually have a bigger advantage compared to destro if the fight ends up in the palace/citadel. When destro are attacking it is impossible to wipe order and keep them pinned inside their spawn as the order palace spawn area is MASSIVE and order can trivially walk out at any point. Compare this to the destro spawn area when defending the citadel and it is much easier for the order attackers to keep them spawn camped by AOEing the tiny exit portal (I've been on the receiving end of that spawn camp and it's not great to be pinned down inside your own palace). The reason the kings fight inside the palace rather than out in the courtyard is to try and compensate for the large spawn advantage order have on that section of the map. In addition, the fight over the king only matters when the champions vanish one way or another (dead or timed out).

Wait a sec. Is your complaint is that Destro can get spawn camped while Order can't as easily? The degree of difficulty in farming PUGs with a pre-made in a roflstomp is not what I'd personally describe as a balance issue. Champs expire in competitive match ups; that is when the balance issue comes into play in my opinion, but that could just be my defeatist Order attitude coming to the fore.

Also, you seem to be asking for balance based on class preference (order being "ranged-heavy" when it has the same number of ranged classes as destro). The problem is the city maps absolutely suck for ranged classes in almost all areas, and that applies for ranged classes on both sides. I've seen some Engineers be an absolute nightmare in the Slaanesh area in IC by making use of the high ground and the time it takes to get there but that's about the only good spot.

My expectations are so low that I don't really ask for anything anymore. The ganme is what it is. I just comment occasionally when I read some sanctimonious drivel about why Order has never won a City (We supposedly tied one once. Hooray for us!) solely due to us only being unorganized dolts with a Legolas fetish. I'd post the compiled results to support my claim, but I don't want to get banned like Dansari.

But Forts are broken. Better fix those!

[Omegus]

Dansari got banned as he was throwing out personal insults.

The spawn camp can and does happen in premade vs premade too. If you manage to fully wipe the opponent and you're on a map where they only have a single exit then sending most people to spawn camp / funnel / whatever while some work on the king is a safe strat to win the stage. It's akin to holding a postern on a keep wall - the side that wants to push in is at a big disadvantage. Controlling respawns is a big part of stage 3 and order have a massive advantge in the palace that isn't replicated or mirrored.

[Martok]

Can you guys start all of this over? I think I missed something...

[Manatikik]

Dansari got banned as he was throwing out personal insults.

The spawn camp can and does happen in premade vs premade too. If you manage to fully wipe the opponent and you're on a map where they only have a single exit then sending most people to spawn camp / funnel / whatever while some work on the king is a safe strat to win the stage. It's akin to holding a postern on a keep wall - the side that wants to push in is at a big disadvantage. Controlling respawns is a big part of stage 3 and order have a massive advantge in the palace that isn't replicated or mirrored.

Uhhh in a similar vein though in IC "throne room" Destro has a huge advantage because they can drop fully twice before destro can drop once THEN lets say destro wipes they can bomb fully again before order can AND its forced into a chokehold which favors destro - if it was wide enough to kite in then it would be more balanced. Honestly both throne rooms are awful and should just fight in the Fountain's for both every city imo.