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Debate about why Order is how it is.

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Omegus
Posts: 425

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#471 » Sun May 24, 2020 4:31 pm

growill wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 2:10 pm
orillah wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 1:09 pm
Order doesnt need Sw's at warband, especially ranged.
Order doesnt need Ib's in a wb.
Order doesnt need Engi's in a wb.
Order strongly doubt WH's in a wb.
Order need a skill check for Am healers in wb.No room for dps am's ofc.
See this is a problem. that's almost half of order's classes that are not viable because they underperform. How many destro classes' are locked out of wb play?
See if one side has half his classes that are too weak to be played (with their utilities then unavailable for their team) and the other doesn't that's the literal definition of unbalance with one faction stronger than the other
The problem is that this "order classes aren't viable" crap is getting out of hand with terrible advice being repeated over and over again. Things have changed since city launched and people are working out new things that work.

SW: bring an Assault Shadow Warrior. They are terrifying when played properly, output silly amounts of ST damage.
IBs: absolutely fine. almost on-demand outgoing heal debuff, knockdowns, a good armour debuff. A great option for the melee train guards due to the buffs they throw out.
Engi: no arguments here. One if your WB wants to magnet is fine, but you need to be able to drop whatever gets pulled in.
WH: you bring it for the morale drain
AM: Yes there are plenty of pooly specced AMs out there, but that doesn't mean the class is bad. I remember Bombling lamenting that they couldn't find any morale pump AMs for one city siege WB... plenty of AMs, just none willing to respec. This is a player issue, not a class issue.

With the exception of the Engineer, most bad order classes in city are bad specs. Those WBs that are adjusting and bringing more and more melee are getting better and better (still takes some practice - a lot of destro WBs have been doing this for months now) and the city results seem to be getting closer and closer.

Do order have a harder time in uncoordinated groups? Absolutely. Destro melee AOE is far easier to do with little coordination (run forward and spam buttons) and order melee do a far better job at single target which requires assisting. But when the assist train is done properly it is a very dangerous tool.
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Wam
Legacy RR80
Posts: 657

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#472 » Sun May 24, 2020 4:51 pm

Omegus wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 4:31 pm
growill wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 2:10 pm
orillah wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 1:09 pm
Order doesnt need Sw's at warband, especially ranged.
Order doesnt need Ib's in a wb.
Order doesnt need Engi's in a wb.
Order strongly doubt WH's in a wb.
Order need a skill check for Am healers in wb.No room for dps am's ofc.
See this is a problem. that's almost half of order's classes that are not viable because they underperform. How many destro classes' are locked out of wb play?
See if one side has half his classes that are too weak to be played (with their utilities then unavailable for their team) and the other doesn't that's the literal definition of unbalance with one faction stronger than the other
The problem is that this "order classes aren't viable" crap is getting out of hand with terrible advice being repeated over and over again. Things have changed since city launched and people are working out new things that work.

SW: bring an Assault Shadow Warrior. They are terrifying when played properly, output silly amounts of ST damage.
IBs: absolutely fine. almost on-demand outgoing heal debuff, knockdowns, a good armour debuff. A great option for the melee train guards due to the buffs they throw out.
Engi: no arguments here. One if your WB wants to magnet is fine, but you need to be able to drop whatever gets pulled in.
WH: you bring it for the morale drain
AM: Yes there are plenty of pooly specced AMs out there, but that doesn't mean the class is bad. I remember Bombling lamenting that they couldn't find any morale pump AMs for one city siege WB... plenty of AMs, just none willing to respec. This is a player issue, not a class issue.

With the exception of the Engineer, most bad order classes in city are bad specs. Those WBs that are adjusting and bringing more and more melee are getting better and better (still takes some practice - a lot of destro WBs have been doing this for months now) and the city results seem to be getting closer and closer.

Do order have a harder time in uncoordinated groups? Absolutely. Destro melee AOE is far easier to do with little coordination (run forward and spam buttons) and order melee do a far better job at single target which requires assisting. But when the assist train is done properly it is a very dangerous tool.
Order do have strong tools and alot of defeatism mindset

I think the issue is maybe besides like you point out a player issue (wrong build or skill level I guess for those who dont or cannot assist) is "stacking" ... either over or under stacking certain classes which really brings down the structural integrity of their warband especially if its a liability class like Archmages... (yeah you can chain rez with multiple but then your already playing to die alot) and ironbreakers when you only need a couple at most.

Overstack WP is not the best but its also not the worse... much better than rp or am

Its ok to stack some BW/SL/WL

but you dont want to overstack Engi/WH/SW
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Jeliel80
Posts: 75

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#473 » Sun May 24, 2020 5:06 pm

You trying to convince yourself of something? :D
Destro has a huge morale advantage that makes it way easier to organize and play on that side.
Period.

Against proper premade (and not) you're getting perma M2 rotated and perma 25% HD from chosens, denying the so called raw dmg/heal advantages order is supposed to have.

Sure if you're really organized you can cheese AM pumps and solar flare to make it a game. but is so much easier on destro.

So let's stop pretending that the game is balanced, because it isn't... it slowly creeped out in the current situation, bit by bit.

Of course doesn't mean you can't do well if properly organized on order, but that isn't the point...
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Omegus
Posts: 425

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#474 » Sun May 24, 2020 6:07 pm

Jeliel80 wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 5:06 pm
You trying to convince yourself of something? :D
Destro has a huge morale advantage that makes it way easier to organize and play on that side.
Period.

Against proper premade (and not) you're getting perma M2 rotated and perma 25% HD from chosens, denying the so called raw dmg/heal advantages order is supposed to have.

Sure if you're really organized you can cheese AM pumps and solar flare to make it a game. but is so much easier on destro.

So let's stop pretending that the game is balanced, because it isn't... it slowly creeped out in the current situation, bit by bit.

Of course doesn't mean you can't do well if properly organized on order, but that isn't the point...
I mean, you've kinda just agreed with me when I said it's easier to be disorganised on destro than it is order in cities. On the other hand, attacking keeps and forts (esp forts) as disorganised destro is far harder. Months and years of nerf BW/Engi threads that only went silent with cities were introduced. BW/Engi continue to be the same defensive powerhouses but at the moment all anyone can look at is the shinies in the city.

If we make it easier for disorganised destro to have an advantage in cities then we need to rebalance this all the way down to each point of rvr. The destro melee zerg finally got a game mode where it was at an advantage :P
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Drewsephy
Posts: 8

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#475 » Sun May 24, 2020 7:47 pm

Yes order is great at defending forts.... who cares. Cities are the endgame content behind which BiS gear is gated. And fact of the matter is it is MUCH easier to obtain crests on destro.

Iridium
Posts: 5

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#476 » Sun May 24, 2020 8:32 pm

I'm playing this game from CBT live. This game was always mostly about a coordinated morals drop. And globally, a fraction with the better morals synergy between it's classes was dominating in high-end content. Best guess for making this game more skill oriented, more about proper builds, gear and stats would be to remove all aoe damage morals from game. Okay, leave defensive and utility ones like tank's M1 root, why not, it's really fun. What is not funny tho is to lose from 1 button, being pressed by 10-16 players in one time.
In my opinion, this is atm the reason why more and more skilled players rolling destro.
Last edited by Iridium on Sun May 24, 2020 11:39 pm, edited 3 times in total.

growill
Posts: 72

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#477 » Sun May 24, 2020 10:24 pm

Iridium wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 8:32 pm
I'm playing this game from CBT live. This game was always mostly about a coordinated morale drop. And globally, a fraction with the better morale synergy between it's classes was dominating in high-end content. Best guess for making this game more skill orientated, more about proper builds, gear and stats would be to remove all aoe damage morales from game. Okay, leave defensive and utility ones like tank's M1 root, why not, it's really fun. What is not funny tho is to lose from 1 button, being pressed by 10-16 players in one time.
In my opinion, this is atm the reason why more and more skilled players rolling destro.
This is actually brilliant and absolutely true. Whats the poin of ANYTHING when it all comes down to simultaneous 1 button undefendable massive damage

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M0rw47h
Posts: 508

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#478 » Sun May 24, 2020 10:37 pm

growill wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 10:24 pm
Iridium wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 8:32 pm
I'm playing this game from CBT live. This game was always mostly about a coordinated morale drop. And globally, a fraction with the better morale synergy between it's classes was dominating in high-end content. Best guess for making this game more skill orientated, more about proper builds, gear and stats would be to remove all aoe damage morales from game. Okay, leave defensive and utility ones like tank's M1 root, why not, it's really fun. What is not funny tho is to lose from 1 button, being pressed by 10-16 players in one time.
In my opinion, this is atm the reason why more and more skilled players rolling destro.
This is actually brilliant and absolutely true. Whats the poin of ANYTHING when it all comes down to simultaneous 1 button undefendable massive damage
...but how you will push thru funnels then? :roll:
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Iridium
Posts: 5

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#479 » Sun May 24, 2020 11:36 pm

M0rw47h wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 10:37 pm
...but how you will push thru funnels then? :roll:
This is yet to be thought about. You'd still have defensive morals, we can, say, make oil cd timer 5 or 10 minutes or even disable oil spot at all after doors are down, so enemy tanks would have time to build M4 and push. Or, if this sounds too utopia, we can at least disable aoe damage morals on cities, like devs disable morale gain while killing lords on stage 2, so there would be space for tactic and command play, rather than just waiting for M2-M3 and then push to win. Perhaps this would be like a motivation for coordinated players to play more order, rather than wait for the next re-balance patch, gearing destros.

Omegus
Posts: 425

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#480 » Sun May 24, 2020 11:59 pm

Drewsephy wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 7:47 pm
Yes order is great at defending forts.... who cares.
Almost everybody when not spending the hour in the city every 1-2 days. The majority of the time is spent fighting over keeps and forts, meaning the majority of the time destro are having a **** time. Not everyone is RR70 and in full invader ready to farm Sovereign.
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