Debate about why Order is how it is.

[Tillbeast]

The biggest issue with order not having tanks nor mdps is their players. There is nothing wrong with order melee classes, they are not that much worse than destro whilst destro rdps classes are a lot worse off balance wise in comparrison to orders. Stop playing rdps and dps healers and roll some tanks and mdps and the issues @Mordd mentions above will diminish greatly, getting pulled away or being within 40ft will not be as big an issue as you will have support from many more melee classes.

Its also really not fun as a destro ranged dps to try defend keeps as you are melted by the horde of bws and engineers if you try stay on the wall. I know it would be unfair on order rdps but if they got a significant nerf to make them less attractive to play and gave the order melee classes better looking gear it may solve a lot of issues for the game.

[Shooshpanzerer]

I played live for 5 years. From server launch to server close down. Guild warbands three times a week, once a week guild training, twice a week guild pre-made party dungeon crawl to get coordination going. Setup strawnman arguments? We didn't have friendly dev ear back then, once imbalance struck with a patch you had to adapt for weeks or months before next change. Develop new ways to counter fotm tactic. And use different tactics and setups according to what ppl wanted to play and where you played. Roaming wb, bombing wb, range assist, ST pain train, shield wall+pouncing for Moonblob bomb warbands, constant flanking and positioning, teams of WHs operating behind enemy lines and coordinated on voice... Noone wanted to roam and loose so we tried out new things, mostly because mindless zerging got boring real quick. Hardly anyone in my guild xrealmed (8h xrealm lock was a blessing after months of mailbox wars and scenario afks) , if you wanted to play other faction you did that on another server (I had mains on KN and des on Badlands ).

Huge des advantage? Really? If you can't use your silences, disarms, slow downs, CD increasers and other CC in semi organised manner blame's on you.

Ginnar, old buddy. Again and again the same. You're speaking form organized PoV, and when it comes to organized vs organized, it's within margin of error. Yes, for each X, other side has Y. But it's a lot different beast when ity comes to 8/8/8 pug. We can compare chosen vs kotbs. Knight has +15% heal on all party, chosen has 25% parry on self. Knight one is probably better, but it requires rest of the party to stand up and do it, while chosen is more self-reliant. Same with a lot of other things, Order advantages are straight up more damage, more healing, while destro advantages are more survivability, which allows more room for error.

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On the other topic. Order doesn't have tanks and melee because YOU, YES, YES, EXACTLY YOU, ENGIE №127090 play your Engie instead of rolling a tank. And whine and bitch about why you don't have them.

[Fey]

"Knight one is probably better,"

You really think so?

[Mordd]

The biggest issue with order not having tanks nor mdps is their players. There is nothing wrong with order melee classes, they are not that much worse than destro whilst destro rdps classes are a lot worse off balance wise in comparrison to orders. Stop playing rdps and dps healers and roll some tanks and mdps and the issues @Mordd mentions above will diminish greatly, getting pulled away or being within 40ft will not be as big an issue as you will have support from many more melee classes.

Its also really not fun as a destro ranged dps to try defend keeps as you are melted by the horde of bws and engineers if you try stay on the wall. I know it would be unfair on order rdps but if they got a significant nerf to make them less attractive to play and gave the order melee classes better looking gear it may solve a lot of issues for the game.

You really should read what you wrote and think about it a bit.

" There is nothing wrong with order melee classes, they are not that much worse than destro"
so you admit they are worse, but you are good with that.

"I know it would be unfair on order rdps but if they got a significant nerf to make them less attractive to play and gave the order melee classes better looking gear it may solve a lot of issues for the game."
So dont make order melee even, just give them better cosmetics and nerf the RDPS so its worse also and more people will play the subpar order melee. THATS your suggestion?

Did that sound differently to your self when you were writing that? because thats what you just said.
As for your talk of just play more melee and the problem will go away. Just play more ranged and the ranged problem will go away. as you said you would have more support and it would be ok that your class isnt as good. I dont know if it is or not. the only argument ive heard is self cleans and healkeg, which are defensive abilities. No one is melting you on the wall with self cleans or healkeg.

[EsthelielSunfury]

The biggest issue with order not having tanks nor mdps is their players. There is nothing wrong with order melee classes, they are not that much worse than destro whilst destro rdps classes are a lot worse off balance wise in comparrison to orders. Stop playing rdps and dps healers and roll some tanks and mdps and the issues @Mordd mentions above will diminish greatly, getting pulled away or being within 40ft will not be as big an issue as you will have support from many more melee classes.

Its also really not fun as a destro ranged dps to try defend keeps as you are melted by the horde of bws and engineers if you try stay on the wall. I know it would be unfair on order rdps but if they got a significant nerf to make them less attractive to play and gave the order melee classes better looking gear it may solve a lot of issues for the game.

You really should read what you wrote and think about it a bit.

" There is nothing wrong with order melee classes, they are not that much worse than destro"
so you admit they are worse, but you are good with that.

"I know it would be unfair on order rdps but if they got a significant nerf to make them less attractive to play and gave the order melee classes better looking gear it may solve a lot of issues for the game."
So dont make order melee even, just give them better cosmetics and nerf the RDPS so its worse also and more people will play the subpar order melee. THATS your suggestion?

Did that sound differently to your self when you were writing that? because thats what you just said.
As for your talk of just play more melee and the problem will go away. Just play more ranged and the ranged problem will go away. as you said you would have more support and it would be ok that your class isnt as good. I dont know if it is or not. the only argument ive heard is self cleans and healkeg, which are defensive abilities. No one is melting you on the wall with self cleans or healkeg.

I thought it was pretty clear he's annoyed trying to attack Forts and Keeps where Order numbers aren't 1:2 to Destro as usual, which they're used to. Best nerf any kind of opposition, damn it all.

Next thread:"Why did 500 Destro not get into City? 20+ 2/2/2 WBs, please give us crests at least."

[Omegus]

Just had a crazy siege with our alliance group vs Fenryl + Bombling and friends. Amazing fight, we got farmed (BW and Slayer damage is craaaazy) but somehow we won stage 3 with 4% between the 2 lords.

Closest city I've had so far. It's amazing what order can do when they bring a good comp. They got 6x more kills than us lol. Granted about 400 of those were from stage 1 where we were throwing everything at NPCs to try and save the palace door

@wonshot gg

[Manatikik]

Just had a crazy siege with our alliance group vs Fenryl + Bombling and friends. Amazing fight, we got farmed (BW and Slayer damage is craaaazy) but somehow we won stage 3 with 4% between the 2 lords.

Closest city I've had so far. It's amazing what order can do when they bring a good comp. They got 6x more kills than us lol. Granted about 400 of those were from stage 1 where we were throwing everything at NPCs to try and save the palace door

@wonshot gg

LTB not 5 RP instances - I coulda not made it like that but eh its late. Three insta Rez shammies is just aids in middle BO lol.

And it’s pronounced Fenryl + /5 : )

[NSKaneda]

Ginnar, old buddy. Again and again the same. You're speaking form organized PoV, and when it comes to organized vs organized, it's within margin of error. Yes, for each X, other side has Y. But it's a lot different beast when ity comes to 8/8/8 pug. We can compare chosen vs kotbs. Knight has +15% heal on all party, chosen has 25% parry on self. Knight one is probably better, but it requires rest of the party to stand up and do it, while chosen is more self-reliant. Same with a lot of other things, Order advantages are straight up more damage, more healing, while destro advantages are more survivability, which allows more room for error.

Shoosh, my friend! Once des start winning and I go back to order we have to party up together for ol' times sake! My dwarfs need new shinies and a bit of renown grind

-
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To summerize and answer your post: during past 5 days across 3 chars I've been staggered once, disarmed once, silenced... never. Maybe one or two knock downs. Haven't seen AP drain on me outside scs. No crowd control save for engie mines or earthshatters and even those were few. Haven't seen a heal debuff in weeks. I've been morale drained once. In T2 keep

On more positive side: I've noticed a few flanking manoeuvrers, order started using terrain a lot more, morale drop race is now less frequent (thank Mork) and dps race is more equal - winds of magic are blowing (I love that whoosh-whooosh-WHOOOSH sound ). Order tanks push with htl (from time to time) and more IBs on front lines are getting noticeable (runic shield for those moments when des pound with aoe).

I'm speaking from semi-organized oRVR and City POV (remember methods we used for coordinating allies when we used to run 2-3 guild wbs?), it's not like destro are running only full voip warbands, we have plenty of pugs and open Waaaghbands around

[Aurandilaz]

latest hot take on why Order is how it is (from a filthy xrealmer who has +80 chars on both sides);

I blame the trinity of Order ezmode classes;
BW
Engi
WL

New players ask what toon to make, "roll engi"; why - good dmg, long range, good self healing, decent utility. Why not? Lot of roleplay community around engis, lot of easy keep defences, lot of easy ranged snipes - just sit back and shoot something from 180ft while the targets detaunt ends at 100ft range.
New player asks "I want to do high dmg" - "well roll a BW" , highest AoE dps in game, always wanted for warband, stupid easy kills from ROF spam. M2 bomb, insane high AoE melt dmg, even a goddamn self cleanse + self armor buff, own AP regen just in case, root just in case, AoE knockback just in case, same ranged ST nuke spec as Sorc while only maybe -10% behind in potential peak dmg burst. I leeched my own Conq gear on BW back in the day by just standing behind pug wbs, doing RoF + proc + proc + proc + proc, using my own HOT pot to stay alive, and stealing most of medals from friendly warbands because my ROF did more dmg than 2-4 dps players from any specific WB parties, and doing it as AOE attack from range without any need to target anything. Lot of BWs around, always few dozen in every keep defence, crowding the walls with the Engis. Rain of freenown when getting to a fort defence, spam that ROF and post your latest skillscore about how amazing your ROF placement was when it comes to melting 24 pugs who keep dying without even getting close enough to fort room where they would die to someone elses AoE.

White Lions.
Sure, some say they are OP, but honestly they nowhere close to OP now. They used to be more powerful than their current state, still salty over losing my own CS burst last october or so. CS burst is now barely 2-4k crit dmg in 1 GCD, it used to be 4-6k in the past with just one ability. ROR took some old live endgame values, such as 1500 armor debuff, and slapped them to WL/Mara. That 1.5k was minor worry in WAR endgame in 2013 where everyone and their alts had minimum of 4-6k armor on even healers. Then same 1.5k armor debuff was slapped to ROR, except classes here were using Deva (2016), Anni/Ruin (2017), Conq (2018), and unless you were a tank, there was high chance that your light armoured squishy class had 0 armor, after this totally balanced melee range class with 65ft gap closer pounced after your ass and executed the usual Pounce+FO+CS combo in 2-3sec timestamp, often resulting in 4-10k dmg done, and an almost guaranteed kill unless target was guarded or heavily healed.
Anyone playing Destro for past years knew that a WL pouncing on a squishy target was pretty much almost guaranteed death. So, with that in mind, lot of players either avoided solo roaming on rdps, or rather focused on playing mdps where being able to parry few hits might just save you from death. During the peak of Guardian "rebalancing", you might have seen 10-20 WLs roaming the zones, and 0 Destro left roaming (January-March 2018). The pet spec got buffed to such levels that you could pretty much win the fight by sending your pokemon to deal +5k dmg in 3sec due to LF dmg addition to pet and add your own +10k burst within same 2-3s timestamp. The more armored the WL player was (wounds + toughness), the higher your pet would hit (players aimed for 800-900 str, 400-500 WS, +500 toughness, pet gained more STR+WS from player tough+wounds).
Ofc due to Guardian WL, I also stopped bothering with trying to play as Destro solo, since fighting 1 Guardian WL required a team effort to take down, and decided to go with the tide, and enjoyed the spec as it was stupid easy to pretend to be afk and watch as your pet alone shreds some WE to death in 4 sec of combat.

Eventually Guardian is "reworked" to current levels, where its bit meh compared to its past glory. But years of WL bullying has left its mark on Destro players DNA, meaning the few rdps still are extremely careful around WLs, or old time players still stick to their melee mains over considering rdps (who are arguable weaker than Destro melee). Add to the mix Torques Disrupt patch (lasted almost a year), where every DOT could be disrupted against and landing 9 ranged attacks with AoE into blob would against all odds somehow result in 9 disrupts. So yeah, it was probably bit tiresome for most Destro rdps players, who either quit, or went with the tide, and rerolled mdps/tanks/heals.
Ranged Squig/SW specs were gutted in 2017 due to M2 complete removal from game + close range tactic being "fixed". The remaining Magus/Sorc rdps suffered from the Disrupts + WLs overperforming/balanced issues.
Then you can also add Choppa 1st stage GTDC-wave, when it was a 65ft pull in 2018. So Destro avoids ranged, and forms a meleeball. Tanks+melee work together as a ball. Destro dominates open with melees, Order dominates anything that can be funneled with rdps.

Order keeps doing their own ranged stuff still just fine and without having to fear being oneshot by WLs (even later pouncing msh meatballs are nowhere as deadly as peak WLs).

Sadly cities are not same as keep defence, so years of one side favouring melee and avoiding rdps (Destro), triumphs over the side that plays like its trying to defend a keep 24/7.

.t clearly biased xrealmer

[Tillbeast]

The biggest issue with order not having tanks nor mdps is their players. There is nothing wrong with order melee classes, they are not that much worse than destro whilst destro rdps classes are a lot worse off balance wise in comparrison to orders. Stop playing rdps and dps healers and roll some tanks and mdps and the issues @Mordd mentions above will diminish greatly, getting pulled away or being within 40ft will not be as big an issue as you will have support from many more melee classes.

Its also really not fun as a destro ranged dps to try defend keeps as you are melted by the horde of bws and engineers if you try stay on the wall. I know it would be unfair on order rdps but if they got a significant nerf to make them less attractive to play and gave the order melee classes better looking gear it may solve a lot of issues for the game.

You really should read what you wrote and think about it a bit.

" There is nothing wrong with order melee classes, they are not that much worse than destro"
so you admit they are worse, but you are good with that.

"I know it would be unfair on order rdps but if they got a significant nerf to make them less attractive to play and gave the order melee classes better looking gear it may solve a lot of issues for the game."
So dont make order melee even, just give them better cosmetics and nerf the RDPS so its worse also and more people will play the subpar order melee. THATS your suggestion?

Did that sound differently to your self when you were writing that? because thats what you just said.
As for your talk of just play more melee and the problem will go away. Just play more ranged and the ranged problem will go away. as you said you would have more support and it would be ok that your class isnt as good. I dont know if it is or not. the only argument ive heard is self cleans and healkeg, which are defensive abilities. No one is melting you on the wall with self cleans or healkeg.

So you think order melee should be buffed or destro melee nerfed but order ranged left alone. Seems a little unfair. Order melee is not that bad as everyone makes out. The 2/2/2 city warbands on order win as much as destro do its just there is not enough melee so your ranged heavy dps warbands lose due to no guard etc. The issue from a destro rdps point of view is not the number of sorcs and magus we got its just order aoe is a lot better than destros and we do melt if we try to defend the walls. The advantage destro have in melee is minor however there is a huge advantage in favor for order in ranged aoe damage. End of the day Order has the advantage in forts whereas destro advantage is in city. Order already has the highest dps melee class its just destro's utility from MSH and DoK being slightly better than WP that gives them the edge in the melee train...destro has nothing that comes close to the aoe output of a bw ranged wise. Something has to be done, however nerfing one realms melee class or buffing the other is not the answer unless you nerf the advantage of the realm with superior rdps. Players are not going to switch away from there bws or engineers unless order melee is made better than destros melee then all you going to hear then is destro asking either there melee to be made better than orders or there ranged better than orders as any buff made to order melee unless extremely minor will give order both the advantage in melee and ranged.

The problem is with order players not there classes, there are far too many eng, bw and dps ams and nowhere enough tanks or slayers. Ideally a very slight buff to slayers and ASW and a reduction in the amount of aoe damage bws and engis do is all thats needed but as i said order players will not switch to melee unless order melee is made better than destros....its why they prefer ranged as order ranged dps is blatantly better than destros.