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Debate about why Order is how it is.

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Stophy22
Posts: 392

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#311 » Sat May 09, 2020 4:33 am

jvlosky wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 4:30 am
Stophy22 wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 3:01 am
Tanks can taunt GTDC, its a channeled ability.

So any tank has 65ft range to stop a 40ft pull, at least on paper. Factor in EU/NA lag and you might have some issues, but GTDC is hardly the only victim to the lag problem.
I lol everytime I hear this. Yes it is uninterruptible.
Typo or you can’t interrupt it?
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Manatikik
Posts: 1211

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#312 » Sat May 09, 2020 5:06 am

Stophy22 wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 3:01 am
Tanks can taunt GTDC, its a channeled ability.

So any tank has 65ft range to stop a 40ft pull, at least on paper. Factor in EU/NA lag and you might have some issues, but GTDC is hardly the only victim to the lag problem.
Issue with that is the first pull is on the first tick and you can jump cancel to get two pulls in one - so two free pulls per choppa that is undefendable and un-counterable (assuming you want to fight and the lag issues which affect lots of stuff). I'd say just put it on the second tick so there is counterplay to an undefendable pull (and fix the bug but thats unrelated to balance). GTDC is the strength of the Destro train vs kiting because there is no counter play except have every person always be 40 ft+ from the melee train not including lag - GTDC is fine if the (what I assume anyways) intended counters were possible.
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dansari
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Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#313 » Sat May 09, 2020 6:11 am

Spoiler:
Spoiler:
NSKaneda wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 2:46 am
Mordd wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 7:17 pm
NSKaneda wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 6:16 pm
Hint: this is what IBs and rSWs are for ;)
How does a IB stop GTtC in a pack of 20 destro melee? They immune to the pull? not that i know of.
RSW really.... from everything I have heard from both sides, this is one of the worst classes/specs in the game and that is your answer. Wow really reaching here.
IB: Speccable long range knockback that made all destro green with envy ;) Knock down if choppa parries.
Also: oathstone+g&b right after punt cause des gonna be pissed - or shield sweep to push them back a bit. And start with taunt and challenge.

rSW: disarm. heal debuff. dot. debuff. dot. burst. No choppa ;)
edit: engie disarms, I've forgotten that SWs got melee disarm. AMs can AP drain that choppa getting target from pulled teammate he's healing. So many ways ;)

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Mordd wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 7:17 pm
NSKaneda wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 6:16 pm
And pouncing WL+SM combo to harass heal line and lower pressure from mdps pain train.
What does pounce have to do with GTtC. Your squigs do that all the time also with better armor than a Wl and a self heal, and AOE that a SM doesnt really even have. Again a really pathetic reach.
WLs got aoe. And added bonus of being bane of healers and most will run or self heal giving your side pressure advantage (meanwhile invisible WHs flank front line and get on backs of heals). Pouncing SMs are for guard and added dmg. Also: WL&SMs jump from behind HTL tanks on /assist. They can't target in a fray.
And a charging squig - you see that a long way coming :)

Karak Norn way of doing things :)
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cfabr
Posts: 50

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#314 » Sat May 09, 2020 6:27 am

cfabr wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 5:20 pm
So i have somewhat of a different approach (after having a similar discussion in another thread) and thinking that, that might actually have an impact on players playstyle and bring a larger variety of builds aswell as classes ingame. What would happend if we removed ALL armor talisman from game? Simply, no more stacking armor like crazy. Now you would be given the choice. Do i still want to dish out damage, but be super squishy? or go more deffensive? Which would have a significant impact on your damege output? ...
I think it would bring a much better dynamic into the fights. Your backline would suddenly rely on your frontline too keep the enemies at bay, ASWELL as paying attention too your surroundings because WE/WH and SW/SH would suddenly have a role in wb with their physical damage. Your frontline dps would rely on your tanks to actually guard them and still pay attention to everything that hapends behind them because those pesky WE/WH and SW/SH could do some serious damage behind the lines.
There would be no more "Lets only roll this or that class, because its super meta" because it wouldn't work without the other classes. Classes would suddenly go back too having their intended rolls and if your realm doesn't have any tanks/any heals/ any mdps/rdps? Tough luck!. Maybe you should try another class that would benefit your realm.

Let me make a follow up on my previous post and explain why i think this could be a possible game-changer ...

First off all, i think the main problem on order is the overall game mentality. Why choose something that would benefit your realm, when you can play this "fun/casual, jack in the box-class" ... self serfecient and with all the tools too go with it. To be honoust, i think the game is pretty well balanced and it's not the difference between GTDC or ramapage (or what ever other abilities you think is a dealbreaker) that's game changing. It's actually all the SMALL things that makes the diffence. Let me explain why i think thats the case, with pretty much all the popular classes on Order.

BW - Has selfcleanse (which sorc doesn't have) and with their ingame mechanic, they can lash out a TON of damage and cleanse themselves from dots. With a pocket healer and a crazy amount of armor, they are quite effective against the destro melee-train.

Engi - Healkeg (which Magus doesn't have) Engi usually comes in grp's though, but with their incredible range AND healkegs they can snipe pretty much everyone before they are in range and heal themselves ... Again, put some armor on them and they can finish off the destro melees that actually make it close enough to hit.

WP - Wounds-buff (which Dok doesn't have) a quite potent buff for WP. As soon as a heal DoK has put everything into Dark Rites there is pretty much nothing interesting in any of the other trees too go with it.

WH - Spirit damage (WE has corp damage). Spirit damege > corporal damage because spirit damge just sticks better to the target and WH are in themselves a solo class.

rdpsAM - Again spirit damage (Sham has corp damage) and they have radient burst (pretty low tactic in middle tree) which makes radient lance an AoE so they have the tools too actually make some of the AM/Sham mechanic work and with their spirit damage they are a pretty good solo-roaming class.

WL - Well you cant really compare WL to Mara, but WL is more of a solo class compared Mara.

And i propaly forgot a few things, BUT anyways.

Overall order have all these "solo-classes" that maybe attracts casual ppl or ppl who likes too play on their own ... and these classes all works perfectly on their own. But how do you counter a melee-train? You slap on all the armor you can get too stay alive long enough to get some kills.

So how do you fix this? ...

And there really only are 2 options -

You can either start to balance and sort out all these small tactics and abilities that make most the order classes that "jack in the box-class", which propaly would make most of these classes uninteresting too play for these kind of players.

OR

You can remove Armor talisman ... that one thing that keeps them alive when playing "solo/pug" against the Destro melee-train. They might eventually realize, that maybe it's better too pick a class that would actually benefit my realm and in the end lead to orders winning more city sieges - Because who doesn't want too win city sieges?

Thats why i think removing armor talisman could be a possible game-changer (Or you could start balancing towards relying on grp-synegy and not solo-play to stay alive, which is also a posibility :mrgreen: )

Mordd
Posts: 176

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#315 » Sat May 09, 2020 6:37 am

Stophy22 wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 3:01 am
Tanks can taunt GTDC, its a channeled ability.

So any tank has 65ft range to stop a 40ft pull, at least on paper. Factor in EU/NA lag and you might have some issues, but GTDC is hardly the only victim to the lag problem.
SO we jsut have to keep 1 tank pre targeted and waiting for every choppa and spot him in the blob for when hes going to channel and stop him..... thats your solution. lol

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Nameless
Posts: 854

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#316 » Sat May 09, 2020 7:28 am

Again the problem is that on ror orders cant do kite groups effectively cos destro got too many anti kite tools. On live most problem caused mara pull, which you could disturb, and was intellect based.
Here on ror you got strenght based pull that u cant disturb feom back;
You got buffed gtdc, which is undefended and give speed buff while channel;
And lastly u got mSh with pounce, that kinda was orders unique perk and that was the reason for gobbos run away racial tactic.

So even vs pug thanks to all of these tools u got pretty hard time to kite properly as orders. Hence zerg mentality build up

Too many easy to use displacement got destro here and that basically almost killed order side orvr small scale
Mostly harmless

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Bozzax
Posts: 2187

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#317 » Sat May 09, 2020 7:49 am

CW3 removed as well as renown immunity to root snare - RIP

Dest have the same

Buffed speed on pets (even gain on you mounted)
-fetch
-perma snare
Flying SMs with morale snare (big deal)
SW/BW rkds (order only)
Pounce (that is reliable compared to live)
SW shadow step

Bo snare shafted Kniggits intact (big deal)
Last edited by Bozzax on Sat May 09, 2020 8:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

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boomcat
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Posts: 183

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#318 » Sat May 09, 2020 8:04 am

billyk wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 11:45 am
boomcat wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 9:27 am
and when im on my BO/chosen im no scared to push frontline alot
Why would you be scared in a video game?
have u seen how online gaming is ?? people are scared of dieing in a game.. :P justtake a look on most order tanks ?! Destro tanks just yolo into battle, because they are more, and its more fun and because big orkz
BO - Noobhammer
Chosen - Korda
Chopper - Buzzatar
Mara - Boomcat
WP - Rosenetta
WH - Rosen

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Mordd
Posts: 176

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#319 » Sat May 09, 2020 8:11 am

Bozzax wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 7:49 am

Buffed speed on pets (even gain on you mounted)
-fetch
Are you on crack? WL pet is no faster than you are and get bugged out a large portion of the time when running to a target and never gets there.
Fetch is about 99.9% worthless.

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Telen
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Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#320 » Sat May 09, 2020 9:11 am

Order classes dont have real kiting classes like the gobbo classes. So introducing pounces and pulls to des broke balance. Unfortunately weve had people responsible for balance that didnt know what they were doing and just focused on the classes they were playing instead of balance as a whole. I mean dot ticks disruptable. Come on that should have sent alarm bells that these guys were clueless.
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