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Debate about why Order is how it is.

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Foofmonger
Posts: 524

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#301 » Fri May 08, 2020 7:53 pm

Mordd wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 6:09 pm
As an old warhammer player but newer to this server these are the main problems i see.

Marauder vs WL. Marauder, press a button and if they dont disrupt or get behind cover you have them. WL, send pet in (lions are evidently not any faster than humans) If its not CC, if the target doesnt just walk away as the pet lumbers twards them, if they dont block the pet, which they do most of the time, you can spam fetch 4 or 5 times and it might work. I played an 80 WL and an 80 Marauder on live and while it was still not close to the same, the pet was at least a bit more reliable. Here its almost completely useless.

The marauder vs WL pull i dont see as a big thing since its single target, defendable etc, but GTtC is part of the problem Order tanks are having.

my 2 cents as a competitive pvp player in MMOs for almost 20 years now.
You must have not tried the Mara pull here then, because it's actually worse then Fetch. So as you say you are new to this server, but your take here is wrong.

So the Mara pull on this server is nothing like live. It will check for pull range at the beginning and the end of the cast. This means that on the vast majority of targets you cast it on, unless you cast it and run right at them, it will fail. Here's the thing about the Mara pull when it fails though. You spend 2 seconds casting it, and it goes on CD. So, most of the time, if you try to use Mara pull as a pull, its in reality just 2 seconds of you standing around doing nothing and then doing more nothing. Also, on this server, for some reason it allows you to even "try" to cast pulls on people with immunities. So, if you do accidently target someone with it who has immunity, it also goes on cooldown!

Realistically, the Mara pull on this server has about a 40ft range unless someone is running at you. They also gave it a minimum range of 20ft! That means you basically can only pull people in a 20-40ft "sweet" spot range, which is also a range in which you can usually just run up to them anyway faster then 2 seconds. Also, as mentioned, it fails about 90% of the time you "attempt" to use it on targets who aren't snared or knockdown or completely motionless.

Now, Fetch is also ass on this server! However, you have the luxury of being able to spam it and "it might work". With the Mara, you don't have that luxury and it's more "you use it, do nothing, go on cooldown" repeat. I use to love the Mara pull on live, it was one of my favorite aspects about the class. On this server they could remove it and I would barely care. It's already so absolutely awful in comparison to what it used to be that it's barely worth having as an ability. To be perfectly honest, the best current use of Mara pull isn't to pull people at all, it's to use it at around 30ft while you run at someone (like GTDC), so you can CC them for 3-4 seconds while you hit them while they float in the air. For this use, it's actually pretty good, but for pulling people it's terrible. For some reason the "float time" of the WL/Mara pulls on this server is much longer than it was on live, although I do recall the pulls behaving this way in the early days of live before they were tweaked by Mythic to have faster pull times so they couldn't be used as glorified 3-4 second CC (of which is their only current use).

I would seriously love in the devs would please considering changing both the pull time (so the pulls can't be used as stun/knockdown CC, which isn't their point), while also reviewing the "max trigger" range, which should never ever be the cast range (to allow for latency and basic quality of life functionality on these abilities), and should probably be something like 75-80-85ft What I mean by this is that if the cast range is 65ft, you can only cast the ability at a maximum of 65 range. In the 2 seconds you spend casting the ability, there's a very large chance that the target will move, and when the 2 seconds over, the check of the pull should still allow for the pull to happen up to a maximum value (probably between 75-85 ft as stated). This is how Mythic did it on live after various attempts on balancing the pulls (including doing what is done on this server which Mythic changed because they realized it didn't work very well), they made them faster so you can't use them as stuns, and they gave the pull user a little "leeway" in pull range so you can actually use the ability. Also, on live, you couldn't even target immune people with the cast (it wouldn't work at all), and also, if a pull failed to fire because of range issues, it DID NOT go on cooldown like it does on this server. Mythic balanced the Mara pull so it at least worked as a pull, the pull on this server is like the Mara pull was in 2008 before anyone tried to make it work right. I'm not trying to knock the devs here, I'm just honestly surprised because it many instances the devs here have done a way better job than Mythic did of balancing this game, but in the aspect of the single target WL/Mara pulls, I'm surprised because their balance is way worse then it was on live, which usually is not the case.
Last edited by Foofmonger on Fri May 08, 2020 8:12 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Bozzax
Posts: 2187

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#302 » Fri May 08, 2020 7:57 pm

dansari wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 6:48 pm
Bozzax wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 5:11 pm
So you dug deep and produced screenies with all other dps classes (Outside of wh,wesw) in game topping. What did u just prove here ;) ?
If you call "from:dansari has:image" in discord and taking the first handful that had MSHs in them "digging deep," yeah I dug real deep bro.
What I see is just another w...thread.

Full derail
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

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Bozzax
Posts: 2187

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#303 » Fri May 08, 2020 8:13 pm

@op
Imo

BW & kniggit is simply to potent on order wb Minmax roster (tune them down while beefing others and wb meta change).

No dest tank or dps is as ”brings all the cheese”.

Sidenote:
Still light cloth ranged toons will always be exposed in city confined rvr and be equally strong in chokepoints
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

Mordd
Posts: 176

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#304 » Fri May 08, 2020 8:46 pm

Foofmonger wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 7:53 pm
Wall of text about pulls.
While I agree both may be bad, i do not agree the marauder one is worse. The WL has the problems of the marauder but in addition the pull has to run at the target at run speed while being CC. WL cant even use it as you describe when chasing someone since the pull is slower than the WL if you consider pounce. Though pounce doesnt cc the target at all and normaly leaves you outside of melee range of your target if they are running away.

That doesnt even go into half the time you send a pet at a target on this server, the pet just disappears until recalled with heel.

As I said though I dont feel this difference is a big deal like GTtC is.

Foofmonger
Posts: 524

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#305 » Fri May 08, 2020 8:57 pm

Mordd wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 8:46 pm
Foofmonger wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 7:53 pm
Wall of text about pulls.
While I agree both may be bad, i do not agree the marauder one is worse. The WL has the problems of the marauder but in addition the pull has to run at the target at run speed while being CC. WL cant even use it as you describe when chasing someone since the pull is slower than the WL if you consider pounce. Though pounce doesnt cc the target at all and normaly leaves you outside of melee range of your target if they are running away.

That doesnt even go into half the time you send a pet at a target on this server, the pet just disappears until recalled with heel.

As I said though I dont feel this difference is a big deal like GTtC is.
Yea they are honestly just both so bad they are almost unusable. It's kinda like arguing what smells worse, farts or poop. At the end of the day, they are both terrible. But yea let's not "consider pounce" which I don't consider at all because you know, the Mara has no pounce so that's not a very accurate comparison (saying fetch is bad cause you can jump faster doesn't make a Mara feel any better about not having pounce and not having a decent pull :-P)

dansari
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Posts: 2524

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#306 » Sat May 09, 2020 12:28 am

Bozzax wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 7:57 pm
dansari wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 6:48 pm
Bozzax wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 5:11 pm
So you dug deep and produced screenies with all other dps classes (Outside of wh,wesw) in game topping. What did u just prove here ;) ?
If you call "from:dansari has:image" in discord and taking the first handful that had MSHs in them "digging deep," yeah I dug real deep bro.
I made a stupid comment and I got called out so now I must deflect to something even more stupid and off topic to show people that I never actually cared about being called out for my stupid comment.
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NSKaneda
Posts: 704

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#307 » Sat May 09, 2020 2:46 am

Mordd wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 7:17 pm
NSKaneda wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 6:16 pm
Hint: this is what IBs and rSWs are for ;)
How does a IB stop GTtC in a pack of 20 destro melee? They immune to the pull? not that i know of.
RSW really.... from everything I have heard from both sides, this is one of the worst classes/specs in the game and that is your answer. Wow really reaching here.
IB: Speccable long range knockback that made all destro green with envy ;) Knock down if choppa parries.
Also: oathstone+g&b right after punt cause des gonna be pissed - or shield sweep to push them back a bit. And start with taunt and challenge.

rSW: disarm. heal debuff. dot. debuff. dot. burst. No choppa ;)
edit: engie disarms, I've forgotten that SWs got melee disarm. AMs can AP drain that choppa getting target from pulled teammate he's healing. So many ways ;)

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Mordd wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 7:17 pm
NSKaneda wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 6:16 pm
And pouncing WL+SM combo to harass heal line and lower pressure from mdps pain train.
What does pounce have to do with GTtC. Your squigs do that all the time also with better armor than a Wl and a self heal, and AOE that a SM doesnt really even have. Again a really pathetic reach.
WLs got aoe. And added bonus of being bane of healers and most will run or self heal giving your side pressure advantage (meanwhile invisible WHs flank front line and get on backs of heals). Pouncing SMs are for guard and added dmg. Also: WL&SMs jump from behind HTL tanks on /assist. They can't target in a fray.
And a charging squig - you see that a long way coming :)

Karak Norn way of doing things :)
Last edited by NSKaneda on Sat May 09, 2020 3:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Stophy22
Posts: 392

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#308 » Sat May 09, 2020 2:57 am

With relation to the WL vs Mara talk (pulls)

Yeah they both suck. WL's have to spam the button and it might work. Maras use the ability and nothing happens.

I think the intended use of the pull is to close a gap or displace an enemy. Now lets say you're tryin to close a gap. Both classes have charge, immunity to roots and snares, but only the WL has pounce. So in terms of complaining about one vs the other I think the "justified" complaint goes to mara, since he does not have an alternative to when his ability doesn't work.

Now if you're trying to displace an enemy I think both classes have the same shitty experience. Sitting there 2 seconds doing nothing for the hopes of something happening when in reality nothing happens vs a buggy cat who ghost targets something you aren't targeting anymore repeatedly. Yeah both have a shitty experience here. I don't see how you can argue otherwise tho.
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Stophy22
Posts: 392

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#309 » Sat May 09, 2020 3:01 am

Tanks can taunt GTDC, its a channeled ability.

So any tank has 65ft range to stop a 40ft pull, at least on paper. Factor in EU/NA lag and you might have some issues, but GTDC is hardly the only victim to the lag problem.
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jvlosky
Posts: 168

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#310 » Sat May 09, 2020 4:30 am

Stophy22 wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 3:01 am
Tanks can taunt GTDC, its a channeled ability.

So any tank has 65ft range to stop a 40ft pull, at least on paper. Factor in EU/NA lag and you might have some issues, but GTDC is hardly the only victim to the lag problem.
I lol everytime I hear this. Yes it can be interrupted. But you better hope you didn't use your 15 second ranged interrupt already on a healer or something else. Also it is pretty hard to interrupt 20 different Choppas spamming GTDC lol.

At least Mara pull has a defensive check beforehand.
Last edited by jvlosky on Sat May 09, 2020 12:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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