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Debate about why Order is how it is.

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EsthelielSunfury
Posts: 110

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#291 » Fri May 08, 2020 5:31 pm

TreefAM wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 5:21 pm
dansari wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 4:52 pm
TreefAM wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 12:12 pm
if you are getting obliterated by squigs it means you have garbage positioning, they do no dmg, they are annoying but dmg wise its all fluf aoe nonsense.
https://media.discordapp.net/attachment ... image0.jpg

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All where MSH was in the top ~3 damage for destro, normally with solid dbs as well. Methinks thou hast no ideath whatever the **** thou talketh about.
And there are magus in the top dmg as well, and often we see cities where an engi is top dmg too, does that mean they are OP classes that need to be nerfed and are the reason why those cities were won/lost?
No, he just provided proof of what I said before. SHs and Shammies are getting invites for premades and Destro can take even more than one because their performance is fine, no one mentioned OP, but there's quite a few here that are unable to follow a train of thought. Still waiting for the answer, but I have a feeling by now your faction bias is clouding past reason.


"AoE fluff nonsense", I think that's the point of denial when we realize we're talking to someone who simply doesn't care.

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maximus76
Posts: 9

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#292 » Fri May 08, 2020 5:40 pm

yes, well maybe a better stat would be dmg mitigated , as in they used their abilities so it shows they are playing rather than just suicidal

Mordd
Posts: 176

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#293 » Fri May 08, 2020 6:09 pm

As an old warhammer player but newer to this server these are the main problems i see.

Morals, its been coverd and argued by people with more experience than me. But i can tell you from the cities ive done. I cant hardly build morale, Ill get close and then watch it drop in chunks, mean while Desto is morale dumping. I have lots of engagements where we are doing well for a while until destro morals build and then its down hill quickly.

As a tank and MDPS the inequality in the pulls.

GTtC Makes playing a front line defensive tank nearly impossible. You cant run a blockade or just put your self out front like you should be able to. Get jsut a little too close to the destro lines and you end up in the middle of them and dead. It will pull you if you are near a corner through the corner. It will poull you through things that you cant walk through like a door that is open. there is no defense it just always works. Order has nothing like this and it shows in how your tanks play.

Marauder vs WL. Marauder, press a button and if they dont disrupt or get behind cover you have them. WL, send pet in (lions are evidently not any faster than humans) If its not CC, if the target doesnt just walk away as the pet lumbers twards them, if they dont block the pet, which they do most of the time, you can spam fetch 4 or 5 times and it might work. I played an 80 WL and an 80 Marauder on live and while it was still not close to the same, the pet was at least a bit more reliable. Here its almost completely useless.

magus and Engi are basically the same. there are more pull magus i think just because of the combo of destro playing more melee and the choppas pull all the time so its a better synergy.

The marauder vs WL pull i dont see as a big thing since its single target, defendable etc, but GTtC is part of the problem Order tanks are having.

my 2 cents as a competitive pvp player in MMOs for almost 20 years now.

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NSKaneda
Posts: 704

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#294 » Fri May 08, 2020 6:16 pm

Mordd wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 6:09 pm
GTtC Makes playing a front line defensive tank nearly impossible. You cant run a blockade or just put your self out front like you should be able to. Get jsut a little too close to the destro lines and you end up in the middle of them and dead. It will pull you if you are near a corner through the corner. It will poull you through things that you cant walk through like a door that is open. there is no defense it just always works. Order has nothing like this and it shows in how your tanks play.
Hint: this is what IBs and rSWs are for ;)

And pouncing WL+SM combo to harass heal line and lower pressure from mdps pain train.
RoR: Burszui SH, Ropopuch SHM, Mordoszczel BO | Ginnar IB, Zuriael AM ++ REV guild ++
Live: Karak Izor -> Karak Norn - Yarpaen IB, Ginnarr SL, Volundr ENG +Ithilmar's Chosen+
* * * playing 19 classes - running out of char slots * * *

dansari
Suspended
Posts: 2524

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#295 » Fri May 08, 2020 6:48 pm

Bozzax wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 5:11 pm
So you dug deep and produced screenies with all other dps classes (Outside of wh,wesw) in game topping. What did u just prove here ;) ?
If you call "from:dansari has:image" in discord and taking the first handful that had MSHs in them "digging deep," yeah I dug real deep bro.
TreefAM wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 5:21 pm
And there are magus in the top dmg as well, and often we see cities where an engi is top dmg too, does that mean they are OP classes that need to be nerfed and are the reason why those cities were won/lost?
Don't move the goal posts. You said:
TreefAM wrote: they do no dmg, they are annoying but dmg wise its all fluf aoe nonsense.
And I responded with several screenshots of MSH dealing damage *and* securing dbs, sometimes dealing the highest damage and securing the most dbs, even over sorcs and choppas. This is while having solid single target damage/cc *and* double armor *and* infinite pounce *and* great utility. Don't strawman me with Magus. Accept you made a dumb comment and move on.
NSKaneda wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 5:28 pm
That ^ and the fact that WLs seem to do better than these squig herders.. If WLs are balanced, then so are mSHs.
Cool. So we're giving WLs 4k+ armor, a ranged 60% aoe snare morale, shatter limbs, a core kd, the best aoe punt in the game, and a 2400 ranged speccable m4 in the same build? You can strawman specific parts of the MSH kit all day but it's common knowledge the class was left in a crazily overtuned state. Only destro fanbois can't acknowledge this simple concept.
<Salt Factory>

Mordd
Posts: 176

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#296 » Fri May 08, 2020 7:17 pm

NSKaneda wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 6:16 pm
Mordd wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 6:09 pm
GTtC Makes playing a front line defensive tank nearly impossible. You cant run a blockade or just put your self out front like you should be able to. Get jsut a little too close to the destro lines and you end up in the middle of them and dead. It will pull you if you are near a corner through the corner. It will poull you through things that you cant walk through like a door that is open. there is no defense it just always works. Order has nothing like this and it shows in how your tanks play.
Hint: this is what IBs and rSWs are for ;)

And pouncing WL+SM combo to harass heal line and lower pressure from mdps pain train.
How does a IB stop GTtC in a pack of 20 destro melee? They immune to the pull? not that i know of.
RSW really.... from everything I have heard from both sides, this is one of the worst classes/specs in the game and that is your answer. Wow really reaching here.

What does pounce have to do with GTtC. Your squigs do that all the time also with better armor than a Wl and a self heal, and AOE that a SM doesnt really even have. Again a really pathetic reach.

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Corander
Posts: 12

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#297 » Fri May 08, 2020 7:18 pm

There are a few things I can add to this topic as a relatively new player. I played Live for a few years, but just now started RoR a month ago. So I feel like a newbie.

#1 - Order mentality. I play Order only for now so can comment here. Every time a new player asks what class they should play the majority of people will say "play whatever is fun to you, that is the most important thing." There is some truth to that. Why spend hours and days of your life playing a class you don't totally enjoy. However, if one side is picking classes to win raids and the other is just picking to have fun, there is going to be a desparity. Fun does not equal the right combo to win.

#2 - To the people saying there is a BW overload on Order....I don't see it. I have 4 classes leveled up in the 25-32 range. Each time I play my BW I barely see others on. If I do scenarios most of the time I'm the only BW in the scenario group(maybe 1 other.) There are plenty of SWs, AMs that don't heal, and WP that can't figure out if they want to dps or heal (doing not so great in either category.)

#3 Warband play and rewards - I'll post more after this quote here...
Vayra wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 8:20 pm
emiliorv wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 6:53 pm


You cant do any of these things as a tank or a healer (specced as proper healer), these roles are binded to grp/wb gameplay...you cant go solo and profit.
You could on live, but according to Wargrimnir, they have very deliberately made that impossible for healers here to force them to group. Funny how they didn't do the same for dps. Imagine the outcry if you couldn't farm renown from running solo in the lakes. Might get some better balance between dps, tanks, and healers, though.
I just found out last night that this was true. I was playing my RP. I joined an Open Warband to play, have fun, and hopefully up my RR. My warband was sitting in the keep AFK. About 2 people were out roaming with other groups. I decided to follow some of the roaming groups. I thought I could toss heals and keep them alive instead of just sitting in a keep doing nothing but waiting for Destro to arrive. I was having fun tossing out heals left and right. Keeping some 40s alive and in the fight even though I'm only 25 on my RP. Well, after several skirmishes I checked my renown and I hadn't gotten any. Since my WB is afk this roaming group was not doing anything for my reward. I was benefiting them but not the other way around. Even at keep defense most people were afk inside. I was still getting minimal renown. I got tons of my BW, but the poor RP was getting none. The only way to get renown was to stop healing and start dotting as many enemies as I could. Just hoping that one of the ones I dotted died. I have a 26 KoTBS and he's in a similar boat. His RR is a couple levels behind his CR. I don't have this problem with my BW or WL. They both get killing blows and more renown than some measly assist 20 or 30.

So #3 is really a 2 parter - one part Order warbands sitting AFK in keep just waiting for a defense bonus and the other part reward systems favor DPS over tanks and heals. I've played in PUG warbands for the past week trying to up my RR, because we all know scenarios don't really help with that. I've not won a single fort attack due to Destro outnumbering us 2 to 1 at the keeps. We may get the outer door down but that is it.

Mordd
Posts: 176

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#298 » Fri May 08, 2020 7:24 pm

NSKaneda wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 6:16 pm
Mordd wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 6:09 pm
GTtC Makes playing a front line defensive tank nearly impossible. You cant run a blockade or just put your self out front like you should be able to. Get jsut a little too close to the destro lines and you end up in the middle of them and dead. It will pull you if you are near a corner through the corner. It will poull you through things that you cant walk through like a door that is open. there is no defense it just always works. Order has nothing like this and it shows in how your tanks play.
Hint: this is what IBs and rSWs are for ;)

And pouncing WL+SM combo to harass heal line and lower pressure from mdps pain train.
I also love your defense is you think one of our tanks is viable for defense, knights should just sit in the back on their hands.

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teiloh
Posts: 668

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#299 » Fri May 08, 2020 7:35 pm

Most Squig Herder players don't really play their class well, but they still do a ton of damage and provide a lot of utility.

The status don't really show how much damage they soak up or all the disruption they cause with CD increasers and KBs

User avatar
agemennon675
Posts: 275

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#300 » Fri May 08, 2020 7:45 pm

emiliorv wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 12:22 pm
EsthelielSunfury wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 11:57 am
I've seen 5 shamans in City, top healing, well ahead of our overbuffed WPs. Try doing that with 5 AMs and see if you survive longer than 5 secs.
5 shamans and all them top healing?? could you provide a SS of that?? that comp looks like a "niche" for premade wb (not a /5 comp) probably for morale pump and FoG spam.

EsthelielSunfury wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 11:57 am
I've seen plenty of mSH stacking and completely obliterating the backline in a matter of seconds with their mobility
again, looks like a "niche" comp for premade wbs => its the same like the stacking WL for pounce+whiling axe and totaly destroy destro backline... order already did that (iirc was secrets guild who made that).

stacking one class for some wb strategy only works when you do it ON PURPOSE with a clear tactic in mind...if you overstack 1 class because cant find any better and fill with "whatever random pug class you find" probably gonna lose VS any 2-2-2 compensated wb. and this is the same for the 2 factions, if you bring 5 random shamans into a city they will not be top healing and probably you will suffer the lack of dok/ze...
Please do try to stack SW’s in any build and destroy anything they wont even win against a pug
Destruction: 40-BG / 40-DoK / 40-Chosen / 37-Mara / 37/Sorc / 36-SH / 36-Choppa / 24-Shaman / 16-WE
Order: 40-SW / 40-SM / 40-WP / 40-WL / 39-Kotbs / 38-BW / 33-AM / 22-WH / 16-RP / 12-Slayer

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