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Debate about why Order is how it is.

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Starx
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Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#211 » Thu May 07, 2020 12:43 pm

dansari wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 9:26 am
Spoiler:
Starx wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 1:19 am
I'd bet money that 9/10 of the instances order loses the fight is over before destro even gets m2.

Kind of a shitpost but really do I have to explain why morale and class balance doesn't really matter as much as the organization and system problems that order has.

Almost every single time i've solo qued on order (and I farmed full sov on dps am) there was extremely shitty class distribution, never had the problem on destro not once. There is also a reason why you can sit in que on destro for 20+ minutes even if you qued instantly while you get near instapops on order any time you que.
This is such a lazy explanation though. What if we explored *why* this might be happening? Again, recently we had a city score of 5-23. If you believe that there are 23*24 organized destro cities (552 players), I have a bridge to sell you. Let's break everything down when it comes to city setups:
Spoiler:
- KOBS bring 15% heal buff for group, which is negated by Chosen 25% incoming heal debuff aura. But if you don't have a knight in group, you're still going to be affected by the Chosen aura which means order is forced to run a kobs in every group (along with getting the crit buff on block and superior resists aura).
- SM bring cooldown decreaser, which counters cooldown increaser by squig. But WW only effects 6 targets, whereas squig can hit more than that (quick aside here that squig has free reign of where they want to place their cooldown increaser at any time with no cd pounce whereas order does not via Slayer), so order is forced to have one SM in group as well, else they are very susceptible to any cooldown increaser.
- Do you want a 2h knight? You probably want to drop a snb knight for it which means you lose the crit buff for group off Dirty Tricks, but at least you'll deal 1/6 the damage of a 2h Chosen while supplying a wounds debuff + ctbc debuff for the wb and you won't be getting debuffed to worse levels from BO corp debuff.
- Where does IB fit here? Their main unique abilities are the parry buff for one group member, the crit buff for one group member, and their 50% outgoing heal debuff. What do you plan to drop for the group to bring IB: 15% healing and resists that counter Chosen and Blorc, or cooldown decreaser to counter squig?

- Chosen bring -25% incoming heal aura for the entire wb, which negates some of the per group % healing bonuses order has without the same group restriction of 1 chosen per group; and an aoe wounds debuff they can use regardless of spec that negates the WP wounds buff, which once again forces order to run one WP per group else they will be effected even more by the Chosen base aoe wounds debuff. Chosen also has a self morale pump on block, which means they could drop Distracting Bellows pretty early in a fight (way before order will have theirs). 2h Chosen also brings a huge amount of damage and has an 66% uptime 25% parry buff that 2h knight lacks.. normally leading to a 2h Chosen which not only deals way more damage than 2h knight (due to Oppressing Blows, Relentless, and Rending Blade), but also has more defensive capability.
- Which brings us to the abomination that is Blorc. BO bring a huge aoe corp debuff (which order need to rely on engy for) AND an auto attack buff for the group (which helps melee assist trains heavily), conveniently corp debuffing for several sorc abilities and procs; the choice to add a cooldown decreaser to their aoe corp debuff (which does NOT require giving a free kd immunity to your target like SM's WW does); group absorbs+stats like SM; a single target cooldown increaser; the choice for an aoe snare that SM doesn't have; and a self morale pump with a, let's be honest, way over the top m3.
- BG bring aoe snare, 50% outgoing heal debuff which mirrors IB Punishing Knock but tied to a intelligence/willpower debuff that stacks 3x, and with 2h they can spread a ctbc debuff like kobs with once again, more defensive capability and damage. But due to the nature of how the group buffs are spread, it's much easier for destro to bring a 2h BG than it is order to bring a 2h knight, primarily because of:

- Chop Fasta, a second cooldown decreaser for destro on Choppa for the group (that every Choppa specs), which means Blorc is *not* a required tank slot in your group to counter Shatter Limbs, OR
- Replace Chosen with BG and have your BO run Da Greenest for the resist buff, and/or have zealot give resist buff instead of init (any good zealot can review enemy unit frames and see when their buff gets shattered) and/or sham resist buff. Because order really *can't* bring an engy most of the time, you're only getting debuffed from knight resists in the realm of -150ish, which both Da Greenest and zealot buff will cover and leave you better off vs BW damage.
So now we've determined why order is less versatile when it comes to tanks, let's talk about Engy v Magus. The biggest culprits being:
Spoiler:
- Destro murder ball is much more effective than order's in most situations, primarily due to the efficiency of 2h tanks (their damage being superior in most cases outside of 2h IB and their presence easier to slot as aforementioned); the overtuning of MSH, which has been broken for over a year and a half; the presence of an aoe kd on Mara that doesn't exist on order; and superior control of the morale game in every way. This means Magus rift (which *still* has no delay vs Engy which is on a delay) is *much* more beneficial than Engy magnet. Destro *want* to fight you in a ball, order *doesn't*.
- % crit tactic *not* tied to pet, which dies almost instantly to aoe damage
- BW stacking not being viable on order anymore, whereas sorc stacking is very viable, meaning magus can be valuable as a spirit debuffer and engy's corp debuffing isn't as valuable.
We don't need to talk about the abomination that is MSH vs the single target god that is ASW, nor the issues that plague both WE/WH, so let's talk about AM v sham. Sham have a much easier time slotting into warbands for a few main reasons:
Spoiler:
- Superior morale pump, no matter what some people will try to spin. An instant group buff you can pop before entering combat and then on the move far surpasses a single target stationary heal, which allows sham to be much more mobile than AM. It also allows destro as a *group* to reach morales faster than order, which is always more important when morale dropping than having *one* person hit m4. Destro also don't have to worry about morale drains at all, which means they will always have an edge in the morale game.
- Vastly superior incoming damage reduction in the auto detaunt racial vs Run Between Worlds.
Actually I lied let's talk about MSH vs ASW/WL. The biggest factors are:
Spoiler:
- Big Bouncin, which deals *way* too much damage on a class with that much armor capability, is even further made better by its 8s cooldown vs Whirling Axe's 13s cooldown (no such channel on ASW), meaning if you have a cooldown decreaser in group (once again, granted by either Choppa or Blorc), you can constantly spam it.
- A core single target kd, which neither WL nor ASW have nor have room to spec for, given the WL spec kd is tied to pet and you can only get the kd on ASW with 6pc Warlord or if you give up Crosscut or the defensive steroid pounce (neither being worth giving up).
- An aoe cooldown decreaser they can apply anywhere they want.
- A core single target snare which ASW doesn't have in melee (armored) stance.
- A corp aoe dot that syncs with Blorc corp debuff
None of these things are meant to say that order doesn't have over the top things that need to be tweaked, but it does highlight the vast differences in versatility between the two realms, and why *maybe* if you leave out 5 entire classes from warband viability, they will all flood to solo queue cities in the form of ranged SWs, dps AMs, WHs, and engies, or when it comes to IB, be so frustrated you play a different class entirely.
I said it was a shitpost because it was a hot take basically.

Ya I mean it's been said a lot before that order has much less versatility in class options when it comes to city. SW being this **** for this long is honestly like idk what to say. Then you got IB which i've been saying is dogshit since 2016 but no one ever wanted to buff it, but hey lets give BG everything anyone ever wanted right? Anyways this would lead to you are right more dead spots in pug instances but i'd argue that when it comes to pug instances this meta doesn't really matter as much as composition does, you can have the right classes but if you only have 5 healers and 3 tanks it really doesn't matter and that's been my experience on order for quite a while.

Engineer vs Magus is a massive meme, like comparing **** Ranged SW vs Ranged SH. No one actually wants to bring more than 1 of these classes ever and usually you only see it when its a very exceptional player that the group trusts to get the most out of the class. It's been explained why rift/magnet sucks as well with how you have to give out free immunities to ever pull anything you'd want to. Spirit debuff on magus is more valuable because unlike BW a lot of sorcs AoE is actually spirit, whereas engineer debuffs corp and most of BW's aoe is elemental. But on the flipside engineer is bringing pierce defenses which is imo very underrated. Biggest problem with engineer imo is their filler AoE is a really shitty (just like magus) 40ft cone but theirs deals physical damage so its even worse. Also 2 abilities engineer has they cant use on the move when magus can and really mobility is super important in city and magus/eng already have a really **** time with it bc of their class mechanic. Also what destro groups stack sorc? Because ive almost never seen more than 1-2 sorcs in any warband, while ive literally seen 5-6 bw's plenty of times. And ya it's because of class viability, but engineer/magus potential is tied to these 2 classes stacking.

AM vs Sham you're pretty much right, AM pump is only useful in organized groups with comms and ppl actually playing around it. It's not fun to play penis pump AM trust me I did it for a while before I went DPS. Also every destro melee train knows AM is paper and will just sit on you and make you want to kys.

Also I dont get the obsession with the blorc corp debuff, destro has been crying to get it changed to elemental for a while now so it actually makes sense and helps shaman and magus. Sorc has some corp damage but not that much compared to spirit and destro doesn't need to stack a bunch of the same class to win city.

Order needs some help obviously, but it's not accounting for 5-23 days, thats just order pug compositions being horrifically bad, and the fact that you basically have to form a 24/12 man on destro to even get a pop at all because more ppl are doing city on destro. I solo qued for the first time on destro a few days ago, took 26 minutes to get a pop.

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teiloh
Posts: 668

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#212 » Thu May 07, 2020 12:48 pm

dansari wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 9:26 am
Spoiler:
- KOBS bring 15% heal buff for group, which is negated by Chosen 25% incoming heal debuff aura. But if you don't have a knight in group, you're still going to be affected by the Chosen aura which means order is forced to run a kobs in every group (along with getting the crit buff on block and superior resists aura).
- SM bring cooldown decreaser, which counters cooldown increaser by squig. But WW only effects 6 targets, whereas squig can hit more than that (quick aside here that squig has free reign of where they want to place their cooldown increaser at any time with no cd pounce whereas order does not via Slayer), so order is forced to have one SM in group as well, else they are very susceptible to any cooldown increaser.
- Do you want a 2h knight? You probably want to drop a snb knight for it which means you lose the crit buff for group off Dirty Tricks, but at least you'll deal 1/6 the damage of a 2h Chosen while supplying a wounds debuff + ctbc debuff for the wb and you won't be getting debuffed to worse levels from BO corp debuff.
- Where does IB fit here? Their main unique abilities are the parry buff for one group member, the crit buff for one group member, and their 50% outgoing heal debuff. What do you plan to drop for the group to bring IB: 15% healing and resists that counter Chosen and Blorc, or cooldown decreaser to counter squig?

- Chosen bring -25% incoming heal aura for the entire wb, which negates some of the per group % healing bonuses order has without the same group restriction of 1 chosen per group; and an aoe wounds debuff they can use regardless of spec that negates the WP wounds buff, which once again forces order to run one WP per group else they will be effected even more by the Chosen base aoe wounds debuff. Chosen also has a self morale pump on block, which means they could drop Distracting Bellows pretty early in a fight (way before order will have theirs). 2h Chosen also brings a huge amount of damage and has an 66% uptime 25% parry buff that 2h knight lacks.. normally leading to a 2h Chosen which not only deals way more damage than 2h knight (due to Oppressing Blows, Relentless, and Rending Blade), but also has more defensive capability.
- Which brings us to the abomination that is Blorc. BO bring a huge aoe corp debuff (which order need to rely on engy for) AND an auto attack buff for the group (which helps melee assist trains heavily), conveniently corp debuffing for several sorc abilities and procs; the choice to add a cooldown decreaser to their aoe corp debuff (which does NOT require giving a free kd immunity to your target like SM's WW does); group absorbs+stats like SM; a single target cooldown increaser; the choice for an aoe snare that SM doesn't have; and a self morale pump with a, let's be honest, way over the top m3.
- BG bring aoe snare, 50% outgoing heal debuff which mirrors IB Punishing Knock but tied to a intelligence/willpower debuff that stacks 3x, and with 2h they can spread a ctbc debuff like kobs with once again, more defensive capability and damage. But due to the nature of how the group buffs are spread, it's much easier for destro to bring a 2h BG than it is order to bring a 2h knight, primarily because of:

- Chop Fasta, a second cooldown decreaser for destro on Choppa for the group (that every Choppa specs), which means Blorc is *not* a required tank slot in your group to counter Shatter Limbs, OR
- Replace Chosen with BG and have your BO run Da Greenest for the resist buff, and/or have zealot give resist buff instead of init (any good zealot can review enemy unit frames and see when their buff gets shattered) and/or sham resist buff. Because order really *can't* bring an engy most of the time, you're only getting debuffed from knight resists in the realm of -150ish, which both Da Greenest and zealot buff will cover and leave you better off vs BW damage.
So now we've determined why order is less versatile when it comes to tanks, let's talk about Engy v Magus. The biggest culprits being:
Spoiler:
- Destro murder ball is much more effective than order's in most situations, primarily due to the efficiency of 2h tanks (their damage being superior in most cases outside of 2h IB and their presence easier to slot as aforementioned); the overtuning of MSH, which has been broken for over a year and a half; the presence of an aoe kd on Mara that doesn't exist on order; and superior control of the morale game in every way. This means Magus rift (which *still* has no delay vs Engy which is on a delay) is *much* more beneficial than Engy magnet. Destro *want* to fight you in a ball, order *doesn't*.
- % crit tactic *not* tied to pet, which dies almost instantly to aoe damage
- BW stacking not being viable on order anymore, whereas sorc stacking is very viable, meaning magus can be valuable as a spirit debuffer and engy's corp debuffing isn't as valuable.
We don't need to talk about the abomination that is MSH vs the single target god that is ASW, nor the issues that plague both WE/WH, so let's talk about AM v sham. Sham have a much easier time slotting into warbands for a few main reasons:
Spoiler:
- Superior morale pump, no matter what some people will try to spin. An instant group buff you can pop before entering combat and then on the move far surpasses a single target stationary heal, which allows sham to be much more mobile than AM. It also allows destro as a *group* to reach morales faster than order, which is always more important when morale dropping than having *one* person hit m4. Destro also don't have to worry about morale drains at all, which means they will always have an edge in the morale game.
- Vastly superior incoming damage reduction in the auto detaunt racial vs Run Between Worlds.
Actually I lied let's talk about MSH vs ASW/WL. The biggest factors are:
Spoiler:
- Big Bouncin, which deals *way* too much damage on a class with that much armor capability, is even further made better by its 8s cooldown vs Whirling Axe's 13s cooldown (no such channel on ASW), meaning if you have a cooldown decreaser in group (once again, granted by either Choppa or Blorc), you can constantly spam it.
- A core single target kd, which neither WL nor ASW have nor have room to spec for, given the WL spec kd is tied to pet and you can only get the kd on ASW with 6pc Warlord or if you give up Crosscut or the defensive steroid pounce (neither being worth giving up).
- An aoe cooldown decreaser they can apply anywhere they want.
- A core single target snare which ASW doesn't have in melee (armored) stance.
- A corp aoe dot that syncs with Blorc corp debuff
None of these things are meant to say that order doesn't have over the top things that need to be tweaked, but it does highlight the vast differences in versatility between the two realms, and why *maybe* if you leave out 5 entire classes from warband viability, they will all flood to solo queue cities in the form of ranged SWs, dps AMs, WHs, and engies, or when it comes to IB, be so frustrated you play a different class entirely.
To add:

BO CD reducer requires no target so it can be used well in advance of a fight, getting Destro on to optimal rotations immediately.

Shaman synergizes extremely well with other Greenskins. Destro having two CD reducers that are both superior to the SM's in applicability greatly enhances the Shaman class. Greenskin racial tactics are some of the best tactics in the game period, and blow everything AM can get out of the water. On top of that they are very small and literally impossible to target over some of smallest obstructions and behind hulking Orc/Chosen/Mara models. AMs on the other hand glow and sparkling, twirl their staves around, and stand ramrod-straight making them stick out even more than a sore thumb. At this point we may as well make them shriek and have their hair flow like Galadriel's in the Lord of the Rings. Another thing that most Shaman overlook is that AM AOE Detaunt lasts 5 seconds (Walk between worlds) vs the Shaman's 10 (Stop hittin me). Realistically a Shaman will have 40% uptime on AOE detaunt (which stacks with tactic detaunt multiplicatively) whereas an AM will have 16%, thanks to the time difference and CD reducers.

BB vs. Whirling Axe/WB, BB not only has a shorter CD but costs less AP and is core - which means even ranged SH could melee aoe respectably. On top of that mSH has one of the most potent AOE KBs in the game, a non-immunity KB spam channel that also grants faster than mounted movement speed, and a channeled self heal. Even its pet has an anytime KD - why SW ranged KD was nerfed is hard to understand considering. BB also adds another extremely potent AOE ability where Order has none, same goes with BG AOE spam.

Moreover BG version of the heal debuff is spammable, whereas IB has a 5s cooldown and benefits little from refreshing.

Moreover none of these classes have to deal with Khaine's Withdrawal which removes almost all Order DoTs, CD increasers, heal debufs, etc instantly. Speaking of heal debuffs, the DoK heal debuff tactic has effectively 3-4x the uptime of a DPS Runepriest (try not to laugh) ... which itself was mirrored to Zealots. Along with Ancestor's Echo, Regenerative Shielding, and Mountain Spirit. RP didn't get Tzeentch's Talon, morale builder or WoI in return, and their version of Sweeping Disgorgement has no magical resist debuff and furthermore is a step higher up in its tree.

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normanis
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Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#213 » Thu May 07, 2020 1:14 pm

Starx wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 12:00 am
giving engineer/magus a 25% dmg tactic is just lazy, and no one would ever **** use their class mechanic over this tactic hence why I call it lazy.

not again buff turrets they are already buffed from ror begin fron 25% to 40%+ . magus already can kill anyone on sight ( because of lazy +15 crit in each main trees) imagine turrret 45% + 25%(not loner similar to wl) + 15% crit = shiet its totaly not balanced. if u whant really balance enginer than make grenadier corp magich user.
p.s better make pets get aoe heals :oops:
Last edited by normanis on Thu May 07, 2020 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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normanis
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Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#214 » Thu May 07, 2020 1:18 pm

i would take away funnel power from bw and give it to sw.
and make lileaths arrow similar to fire breath
and split arrows instant aoe
+ add to sw morale self pump whenever party crit someone

PieTreBlu
Posts: 18

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#215 » Thu May 07, 2020 2:38 pm

Starx wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 12:43 pm
Order needs some help obviously, but it's not accounting for 5-23 days, thats just order pug compositions being horrifically bad, and the fact that you basically have to form a 24/12 man on destro to even get a pop at all because more ppl are doing city on destro. I solo qued for the first time on destro a few days ago, took 26 minutes to get a pop.
Anyone who plays/have played solo/pug on both sides can confirm this. People can ego-stroke and bask in realm (or guild) pride all they want but ultimately there is nothing about each faction that attracts more/less skilled player. The reality is Destro DOES have an advantage in cities (how big and why is arguable obv) which attracts more people which makes solo queue harder and force prople to group up which will have naturally better comps (read as with at least a modicum of tanks and healers aka not complete trash not "following a meta"). As an order pug I've crushed plenty of destro pugs just because we randomly had the "right" classes while they did not, it just doesn't happen as often because of the reasons we already discussed.

So you have organized to semi-organized below average groups beating average to above average groups because of a natural advantage on top of having more choices on the classes to bring (even as a guild good luck finding a bunch of slayers/bw/kotb/wp online at the random hours a city pops) on top of a bunch of random order pug groups with 1 tank or 1 healer or a bunch of engi/sw/dps am going against semi-pug destro groups with the right amount of tanks/healers and the usual blob of melee you can easily find on destro (but not on order). It just creates a domino effect.

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Telen
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Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#216 » Thu May 07, 2020 2:45 pm

If there were ranged tanks like in some other more recent mmos I dont think melee trains would be so dominant. Really you want your tanks assisting and that cant be done guarding ranged.
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NSKaneda
Posts: 704

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#217 » Thu May 07, 2020 3:12 pm

Telen wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 2:45 pm
If there were ranged tanks like in some other more recent mmos I dont think melee trains would be so dominant.
Hahahahahahaha, made my day XD
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dansari
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Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#218 » Thu May 07, 2020 3:14 pm

Telen wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 2:45 pm
If there were ranged tanks like in some other more recent mmos I dont think melee trains would be so dominant. Really you want your tanks assisting and that cant be done guarding ranged.
I mean tbh most "ranged" classes are going to be only slightly less in-the-blob than melee classes. It's pretty easy to guard a ranged dps that knows what they're doing (BWs that play slightly off the main blob then go in for morale drops, for example). It also allows you to move freely when you're not constantly snared and CC healers on the outside of the blob as well. 2h tanks especially should be in the assist train but if you're not killing a target with ~5-6 dps on it, a few 100 dmg crits with Precision Strike from a snb knight isn't going to make a difference. snb tanks are normally busy interrupting key channels, guard stripping, and cycling their buffs/debuffs anyway.
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TreefAM
Posts: 593

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#219 » Thu May 07, 2020 3:15 pm

Good rdps can stay withing 30feet while still being out of the melee deathball reach

Omegus
Posts: 486

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#220 » Thu May 07, 2020 3:25 pm

TreefAM wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 3:15 pm
Good rdps can stay withing 30feet while still being out of the melee deathball reach
30ft is melee range.

Tactics for true ranged WBs (e.g. kiting warbands) currently have the tanks either doing nothing but hugging the RDPS and maybe throwing the odd axe, or to be split from the RDPS. Adding ranged tanks (or ranged weapons to some tanks) would mostly break the lore completely* but would diversify the fights you see.

I would have no issues with ranged tanks and it would open up so many new ways of fighting in a game that - for better or worse - is balanced around the Guard ability.

*Ironbreakers with guns is a legit thing though - https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Dw ... rakes-2017
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