We can talk about balance, tactics, etc a lot, but there's 2 main issues, both outlined here a lot of time. Destro have X, Order can counter X with Y, Destro can counter Y with Z, etc, etc. That's why premade vs premade is within margin of error (and who's online at the moment).
Issue 1
Bad melee train >>> bad RDPS wall in any scenario.
That leads us to
issue 2 - MAIN ISSUE
Organised pugs basically rolls a d20 24 times on who i get (still maintaining 8-8-8).
Destro
Tanks
1-8 I get a Black Orc, 9-16 Chosen, 17-20 BG
DPS
1-5 Choppa, 5-10 SH, 11-13 Mara, 14-16 WE, 17-18 Sorc, 19-20 Magus
Healers
1-12 Shaman, 13-17 Dok 18-20 Zealot
Order
Tanks
1-12 IB, 13-17 KotBS, 18-20 SM
DPS
1-7 Engie, 8-11 BW, 11-14 SW, 15-17 WH, 18-19 WL, 20-Slayer.
Heals
1-12 WP, 13-16 AM, 17-20 RP
Debate about why Order is how it is.
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- EsthelielSunfury
- Posts: 110
Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.
Where'd you get these numbers from? They don't make any sense.Shooshpanzerer wrote: ↑Thu May 07, 2020 10:14 am We can talk about balance, tactics, etc a lot, but there's 2 main issues, both outlined here a lot of time. Destro have X, Order can counter X with Y, Destro can counter Y with Z, etc, etc. That's why premade vs premade is within margin of error (and who's online at the moment).
Issue 1
Bad melee train >>> bad RDPS wall in any scenario.
That leads us to
issue 2 - MAIN ISSUE
Organised pugs basically rolls a d20 24 times on who i get (still maintaining 8-8-8).
Destro
Tanks
1-8 I get a Black Orc, 9-16 Chosen, 17-20 BG
DPS
1-5 Choppa, 5-10 SH, 11-13 Mara, 14-16 WE, 17-18 Sorc, 19-20 Magus
Healers
1-12 Shaman, 13-17 Dok 18-20 Zealot
Order
Tanks
1-12 IB, 13-17 KotBS, 18-20 SM
DPS
1-7 Engie, 8-11 BW, 11-14 SW, 15-17 WH, 18-19 WL, 20-Slayer.
Heals
1-12 WP, 13-16 AM, 17-20 RP
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- Posts: 91
Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.
Just my observations playing both sides.EsthelielSunfury wrote: ↑Thu May 07, 2020 10:23 am Where'd you get these numbers from? They don't make any sense.
Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.
The few city i played in organized wb we didn't quite have the dps to take them down, but neither did them. So all turned down to morale drain > morale drop gg.
Saying morale is not a game changer is quite frankly very silly since they are by definition the strongest skills in the game
Saying morale is not a game changer is quite frankly very silly since they are by definition the strongest skills in the game
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- Posts: 1
Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.
I'm a new player that joined after the Lazy Peon video, saw that Order were the underpopulated faction at the time and rolled it for the challenge. Dansari's post just gg'd this thread and is exactly the differences I'm seeing as a competitive oriented player. During my time on the server, we had the majority of veterans in the guild I'm in roll Destro characters and we constantly would compare abilities to better understand our classes and theirs.
Are order players more casual and generally less skilled? I'd say absolutely from my experience. But not to the 70% winrate for Destro cities constantly happening. That's a ridiculous discrepancy.
It comes down to Order having to put in way more effort and coordination to achieve similar results based on the mechanics of the classes which aren't mirrored. Once again, Dansais knocks it out of the park with his post. Quoted below for good measure, his response is on the previous page.
All these guild leaders and big egos beating their own dicks in this thread in a largely dead game, pretending that their organization and leadership is the only difference is appalling, especially if they want player retention and some competition to organically arise from currently weaker side. Funny that multiple ego guilds wrote in this thread they have such a hard time keeping organised recruitment going on the Order side... couldn't have anything to do with needing to exclude multiple classes on Order from competitive play while also needing to play at a higher and more coordinated level to achieve similar results in the current meta.
Are order players more casual and generally less skilled? I'd say absolutely from my experience. But not to the 70% winrate for Destro cities constantly happening. That's a ridiculous discrepancy.
It comes down to Order having to put in way more effort and coordination to achieve similar results based on the mechanics of the classes which aren't mirrored. Once again, Dansais knocks it out of the park with his post. Quoted below for good measure, his response is on the previous page.
All these guild leaders and big egos beating their own dicks in this thread in a largely dead game, pretending that their organization and leadership is the only difference is appalling, especially if they want player retention and some competition to organically arise from currently weaker side. Funny that multiple ego guilds wrote in this thread they have such a hard time keeping organised recruitment going on the Order side... couldn't have anything to do with needing to exclude multiple classes on Order from competitive play while also needing to play at a higher and more coordinated level to achieve similar results in the current meta.
dansari wrote: ↑Thu May 07, 2020 9:26 amThis is such a lazy explanation though. What if we explored *why* this might be happening? Again, recently we had a city score of 5-23. If you believe that there are 23*24 organized destro cities (552 players), I have a bridge to sell you. Let's break everything down when it comes to city setups:Spoiler:
So now we've determined why order is less versatile when it comes to tanks, let's talk about Engy v Magus. The biggest culprits being:Spoiler:We don't need to talk about the abomination that is MSH vs the single target god that is ASW, nor the issues that plague both WE/WH, so let's talk about AM v sham. Sham have a much easier time slotting into warbands for a few main reasons:Spoiler:Actually I lied let's talk about MSH vs ASW/WL. The biggest factors are:Spoiler:None of these things are meant to say that order doesn't have over the top things that need to be tweaked, but it does highlight the vast differences in versatility between the two realms, and why *maybe* if you leave out 5 entire classes from warband viability, they will all flood to solo queue cities in the form of ranged SWs, dps AMs, WHs, and engies, or when it comes to IB, be so frustrated you play a different class entirely.Spoiler:
Last edited by dandelions on Thu May 07, 2020 12:05 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.
dandelions wrote: ↑Thu May 07, 2020 11:56 am I'm a new player that joined after the Lazy Peon video, saw that Order were the underpopulated faction at the time and rolled it for the challenge. Dansari's post just gg'd this thread and is exactly the differences I'm seeing as a competitive oriented player. During my time on the server, we had the majority of veterans in the guild I'm in roll Destro characters and we constantly would compare abilities to better understand our classes and theirs.
Are order players more casual and generally less skilled? I'd say absolutely from my experience. But not to the 70% winrate for Destro cities constantly happening. That's a ridiculous discrepancy.
It comes down to Order having to put in way more effort and coordination to achieve similar results based on the mechanics of the classes which aren't mirrored. Once again, Dansais knocks it out of the park with his post. Quoted below for good measure, his response is on the previous page.
All these guild leaders and big egos beating their own dicks in this thread in a largely dead game, pretending that their organization and leadership is the only difference is appalling,
especially if they want player retention and some competition to organically arise from currently weaker side.
dansari wrote: ↑Thu May 07, 2020 9:26 amThis is such a lazy explanation though. What if we explored *why* this might be happening? Again, recently we had a city score of 5-23. If you believe that there are 23*24 organized destro cities (552 players), I have a bridge to sell you. Let's break everything down when it comes to city setups:Spoiler:
So now we've determined why order is less versatile when it comes to tanks, let's talk about Engy v Magus. The biggest culprits being:Spoiler:We don't need to talk about the abomination that is MSH vs the single target god that is ASW, nor the issues that plague both WE/WH, so let's talk about AM v sham. Sham have a much easier time slotting into warbands for a few main reasons:Spoiler:Actually I lied let's talk about MSH vs ASW/WL. The biggest factors are:Spoiler:None of these things are meant to say that order doesn't have over the top things that need to be tweaked, but it does highlight the vast differences in versatility between the two realms, and why *maybe* if you leave out 5 entire classes from warband viability, they will all flood to solo queue cities in the form of ranged SWs, dps AMs, WHs, and engies, or when it comes to IB, be so frustrated you play a different class entirely.Spoiler:
This post is the best thing ever and I agree 100%. Overall Destro is more over-tuned and better. Just tiny pp Destro players who liked being carried by their class keep saying 'iT iS BeCuAsE DeStrO iS BeTtEr' has never taken a statistical analysis course in their life. Numbers dont lie and when the percentage of win discrepancy is this high in Destro's favor the issue has to be taken up with the game makers and not the players.
It isn't the players job to not play 2 classes on their side 'Order' just to win. Destro classes on average when compared 1 for 1 are better than their Order counterparts.
Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.
Another take:
When the Mara had its morale drain abilities and tactics swapped around recently for the first week or 2 it couldn't actually drain morale as the new drain skill was bugged. I don't think it made a dent in the city stats. It made tough fights tougher for destro and made no change to a melee blob rolling over a ranged blob before either side gets to M2.
Remember what the big complaints were before cities? It was order's mass of rdps instanuking people in keep sieges. Engi nests. BW funnels. Knight morale drains during key pushes. None of that has changed and destro melee still go through absolute hell during sieges of any kind as the ranged imbalance favours order. Keeping enough damage on 2 tiny chokepoints was trivial.
All of that is still there except now there is a new game mode that favours melee over ranged and suddenly destro melee is op even though the few order groups running melee setups also do very well (and often get more kills overall due to having better single target damge and better healing against aoe thanks to overspamming WP). The implicit advantage order have in keeps and forts by over-stacking ranged classes in is gone. Those poor BW and Engis who have grown fat from farming easy kills with little to no coordination have now become the easy kill. It's not nice, is it?
Meanwhile, the mass of destro melee dps have had to fight for heals and guards to do anything, who since live have mostly stood around being farmed during keeps and forts until they needed to push through a door before going afk again until the next time are now finally getting their payoff. Slayers, WL and Shadow Warriors get to join in on the fun too. SW might not be in a spec they enjoy but they have a useful spec and need to suck up spending an hour in melee to earn crests for ranged sov (I assume there is a ranged sov)
Out of all the classes I feel sorry for WE and WH the most. They might do good in the very niche ranked team deathmatch but besides that... they can kill bosses quick in pve. Almost/all other classes have viable roles or specs for the open pvp content but those 2 really are in the shitter at the moment.
When the Mara had its morale drain abilities and tactics swapped around recently for the first week or 2 it couldn't actually drain morale as the new drain skill was bugged. I don't think it made a dent in the city stats. It made tough fights tougher for destro and made no change to a melee blob rolling over a ranged blob before either side gets to M2.
Remember what the big complaints were before cities? It was order's mass of rdps instanuking people in keep sieges. Engi nests. BW funnels. Knight morale drains during key pushes. None of that has changed and destro melee still go through absolute hell during sieges of any kind as the ranged imbalance favours order. Keeping enough damage on 2 tiny chokepoints was trivial.
All of that is still there except now there is a new game mode that favours melee over ranged and suddenly destro melee is op even though the few order groups running melee setups also do very well (and often get more kills overall due to having better single target damge and better healing against aoe thanks to overspamming WP). The implicit advantage order have in keeps and forts by over-stacking ranged classes in is gone. Those poor BW and Engis who have grown fat from farming easy kills with little to no coordination have now become the easy kill. It's not nice, is it?
Meanwhile, the mass of destro melee dps have had to fight for heals and guards to do anything, who since live have mostly stood around being farmed during keeps and forts until they needed to push through a door before going afk again until the next time are now finally getting their payoff. Slayers, WL and Shadow Warriors get to join in on the fun too. SW might not be in a spec they enjoy but they have a useful spec and need to suck up spending an hour in melee to earn crests for ranged sov (I assume there is a ranged sov)
Out of all the classes I feel sorry for WE and WH the most. They might do good in the very niche ranked team deathmatch but besides that... they can kill bosses quick in pve. Almost/all other classes have viable roles or specs for the open pvp content but those 2 really are in the shitter at the moment.
Zomega: RR8x Zealot
Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.
Remember, it's the win percentage on 2 maps all on the same level that are full of chokes and narrow alleyways in a game mode that has existed for just over 2 months. Peonwave know nothing else.
I'd like some stats on the win rate of forts for order and destro
I'd like some stats on the win rate of forts for order and destro
Zomega: RR8x Zealot
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Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.
Would be interesting, including before city implementation. Who is defending vs who is attacking is also a major factor. Order is good at defending forts....but I leveled without the help of x2 (maybe 1 weekend) events and I never saw the inside of a destro fort until over rr70. Came close in Fell Landing once, but couldn't get inside the walls. That could have been poor leadership/organization, but that was when the open campaign was nothing but a destro steamroll every day so Order was lucky to even sniff at CW, Caledor, or BC.
WH looking for gunbad left
Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.
Why this happens? Likely there's a population imbalance causing more destro players queueing for city. Which means a lot of people don't get in. This mainly affects solo queuers since it's much easier to match up a full wb or 12 man for an instance. This forces destro to organize to even get in to the city, and even then if you're late queueing you're not guaranteed a spot. From personal experience, I have queued solo 5 seconds after queuing opened, and didn't get a pop. How late can you queue solo on order and still get a pop?dansari wrote: ↑Thu May 07, 2020 9:26 am [
This is such a lazy explanation though. What if we explored *why* this might be happening? Again, recently we had a city score of 5-23. If you believe that there are 23*24 organized destro cities (552 players), I have a bridge to sell you. Let's break everything down when it comes to city setups:
This leads to what Omegus said earlier:
Omegus wrote: 1. Disorganised order get farmed in cities. Disorganised destro don't get into cities.
Why this population imbalance happens I don't know, might be caused by what people have said about destro having more viable setups so more people feel useful and try to get in. Might be caused by people who play both sides choosing to play destro for cities, either due to wanting to gear their destro toons or because they won't get an organized group on order due to their class choices there.
But there absolutely were far more organized destro groups in the siege you refer to (and in every other siege). There probably wasn't 23 full warbands, probably 16-18 full warbands from guilds, alliances and /5, alongside a good number of 12 and 6 man groups making up the other instances with a few lucky solo players filling up a party here and there. A few of them likely got into the losing instances as well but faced organized opposition and ended up losing against a fair fight. And maybe there was 1 or 2 full pug instances on destro, who may or may not have faced a full pug instance on order where the outcome is a coin flip.
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