Debate about why Order is how it is.

[Wam]

To answer the OP: it's about aesthetics, imo. Destro tanks have always looked cooler than order tanks.

To answer everyone else that morphed this into a conversation about balance: it's about versatility, overtuning, and simple counters. Yeah, most of the top order players are doing fine.. as long as they bring at least 4 WPs and at max 1 AM, at least 4 kobs and at max 1 IB, a healthy dose of mdps preferably 4 Slayer with 1-2 WL, 0-2 ASW, 1-2 BW. Please don't bring engy or too many ranged dps or too many ASW. Assist train well, avoid/recover from morale drops that you can't counter directly, etc.

Meanwhile, I've literally seen every combination of destro work. I've seen meatball stacks with 3-4 MSH. I've seen no Mara. I've seen 4 Mara. I've seen 6 Choppa. I've seen 2 chosen, 4 BO, 2 BG with 4 sham, 2 dok, 2 zealot morale drops. I've seen 6 sorc, 1 chop, 1 Mara balls.

ffs FMJ beat fenryl's /5 with **** 7 healers, 2 magus, 6 sorc, and a Mara (not even 2-2-2). Please don't try to tell me that FMJ with 7 healers is just better than Fenryl's /5 who win most of their cities.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... ru_281.jpg

From what I can tell LOB/Montague won in kills but lost every stage this morning to Dachosen's /5 but that's on them for bringing an engy and not enough Slayers amirite
fellow kids lmao

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... _city1.jpg

Score was Order 5, Destro 23 this morning. Please don't try to explain to me that there are just 23 wbs worth of destro that are more organized and assist better than order.

Sadly there is mate... there is little consistancy on order groups

If order's best come up against strong destro groups, some of order's best will win but not all of them... LOB/Montague / VII(beavers) are order's best chance of wins...

Then a couple wins for order if they face some real trash desperate destro pug groups that are not 2-2-2 ...

Order barely assist in most instances...

Who are these other groups which are going to get win's?

Order as a realm is only good at defending forts when they allow enough realm pride in and stack RDPS behind the safety of walls.

Destro pugs have been better for years, GDY/Ocara superior pug leaders on destro ... Other destro pug leaders stepped up and when sov was released they got more organised very fast... while order is just RNG show up and expect to win then blame balance/gear etc... people lost to my destro guild because apparently we was already full sov (even though we geared up our order alts first for more challenge ha) ive heard all the excuses in the book.

I joined a pug 6 man, which became a 12 man and we merged with another 12 man inside... vs order group... I was one of the worse classes to be a witch elf and we wasn't on comms, we didn't have a dedicated leader, just one main assist choppa which we barely followed and we won because enemy composition was trash and they fed us... their white lion did predictable superman play at the start instant gibbed him and then rushed the rest... they die in 10 seconds vs us ... No morale question, just positioning, team play , assist, healing or lack of... that is some SERIOUS LEARN TO PLAY ISSUES which cannot be balanced or taught, you need to learn and seek self improvement or just be perma farmed.

Both sides zerg, but order is the zerg faction... some new players will have awareness , good instinct and some knowledge, but most will be playing catch up game, hundreds more of those players ended up on order side... if your filling your team with fresh players and casuals you get these results... before server pop explosion was maybe 100 vs 200 in the lakes in D favour, and that is with my guild on O side to help balance pop too. Easier for newer players to blend in destro, than it is on order which was already struggling for years due to its structure... the old cature method of stack on me (every wb) and make overflow is not going to serve you well in city instance when numbers are balanced. You need some teamwork, but if your going to zerg and only zerg your teamwork is going to fade away.

If you think its a balance issue, tell me why my guild only lost one match on order side on our alts when we was running rag tag setup? answers on post card please... tell me why there is such a big difference between orders current best and the rest... I know the answer, you won't want to admit the answer... (they play to their strengths, the rest do not... the rest prefer to look for excuse/whine nerf instead of look for own improvement)

[MMXX43]

My thoughts is its just a logical, after all changes - nerfs/buffs, reworks.

Destro wb playstyle doesnt changed in all this years: blob-aoe-moralbomb.

On other hand order always have pretty strict wb setup, and pretty much all parts of this set up got nerfed over the time.
If the match isnt massively favors 1 side in terms of gear/composition, order tactics on game is usually just harder to pull in pugish environment. All this: "dont blob spread out, now come together bomb, we need this 1(or nonexistent) am somehow pump whole wb" requires far more communication than simple: stick together and bomb on my command.

ΤHIS ^^^

[teiloh]

Order has higher dmg output (BW + Slayer vs their destro "mirrors"), Order has higher healing output (WP + RP + Kotb + AM + SM heal modifier stack potential) and what Order lacks in morale drain, they compensate with superior ST morale pump (1 AM focus pumping a KOTB to SF within 20 sec). Their CC game is arguable weaker, assuming you rate Choppa pull as positive fight decider (assuming its followed by dmg and not just a random free immunity) or Mara AOE 2 s KD which Order does lack (no one engi sacrifices their turret for the realm).

This is flat-out wrong and a myth. See my above post on how Sorc hits lower resistances than Order, and Slayer in no way does more DPS than Choppa, especially not to those who they should be targeting anyway. Rampage drops your mechanic and can be Shattered. Not only that but the prevalence of Destro CD decreasers (Choppa + BO) CD increasers (Choppa + BO + SH) means that your optimal DPS/heal rotations are severely **** in a fight on Order while Destro can pull off tons of cheap tricks, like 100% uptime Big Bouncin and Fury of Da Green. Destro also has far superior heal debuff options, whether you want to count that as damage or healing is up to you. BG vs. IB, Mara tactic if you go for it, rSH far better than rSW, DoK >>>>, etc.

The only difference is that Knights and WPs have their heal tactics, but these consume tactic slots that can be replaced with something equally effective in a DPS vs. Heal competition. A WP healing isn't only limited by their heal throughput, but also by their resource, cooldowns and cast times. Order loses big time on number 2 and that fourth tactic slot for an equivalent DOK will make up any difference in total heals. Especially since the WP buff requires a defense and some building around it.

Destro also has more AOE, period. Just count the abilities. BG + SH are both excellent AOE spammers whereas their equivalents cannot AOE respectably.

As for CC your examples cover only a very small portion of that advantage - Magus pull is instant vs the Engi having a delay, and Magus pull/AOE lines are far superior to Engi now that UF is nerfed. Mara pull does not require a pet and has no serious consequences for failure. Many WL don't even run a pet anymore since they die too fast and pets have weird pathing/responsiveness, making Fetch unusable. Choppa pull on paper is bad enough, in practice the pull is like an undefendable second stun with high damage.

Then when it comes to snares, Covenant means you're always snared - period. BG cone snare has a better targeting scheme than IB Earthshatter. Then for those snares common between the realms, Destro once again has a huge advantage in CD/Morale builders and drains. Which means instant SH AOE snare, 50% more uptime on Shaman puddle per Shaman, etc. It's a huge advantage for Destro.

And speaking of snares/debuffs/cd increasers, DOK's Khaine's Withdrawal (which will be up within 3 seconds at most with a pump Shammy) removes almost all Order heal debuffs, shatter limbs, snares, DoTs, etc. Completely removes everything including ID, Burn Away Lies, every single Engi/Wiz/Archmage DoT and Debuff including puddle and AP drain, etc. So Destro doesn't just have better morale drains and pumps, it has better morales period. Especially since Sorcs, Zeals and Marauders had some of Order's best morales handed to them, and Knight M2 got nerfed to hell.

Somehow most groups fail to achieve the needed synergy between the trinity; either heals are weak or slow or melt too fast, or tanks unable to remain in guard range and use CC wisely or unable to perform proper challenge rotations, or dps unable to coordinate with assisting and stay out of AOE-bomb centres to remain alive long enough to melt enough enemy DPS.

Forcing the enemy to "stay out of bomb centers" is already a huge advantage. You force them to move. And Order either has to spread and pull (because Destro pulls are far, far superior to Order's), costing them dps and heals, or clump, putting them at risk of being bombed. Or I guess you could do a weird pincer or sandwich or straddle with LOS, but Destro doesn't have to rely on that 2nd or 3rd order of coordination. I

Another aspec is Orders unwillingess to adapt to changing meta, in ORVR stacking BWs is more than good, in cities only bad enemies let you win vs a BW stack. You need that melee burst to get any focus healed target with 8 hots down.
Devs nerfing Shatter Limbs from 5 sec down to 3 sec was kinda ehh, but arguable MSH lost theirs as well. WH nerf was brutal to Order due to lack of alternative options when it comes to slowing down enemy morale game. RP healdebuff nerf was kinda mean, even if both zealot and DoK lost their aoe hdbuff as well.
[/quote]

[MMXX43]

Shocked to see the traditional zerg lords that is Destro now complain about Order zergs . Also Morale game .

[Wam]

My thoughts is its just a logical, after all changes - nerfs/buffs, reworks.

Destro wb playstyle doesnt changed in all this years: blob-aoe-moralbomb.

On other hand order always have pretty strict wb setup, and pretty much all parts of this set up got nerfed over the time.
If the match isnt massively favors 1 side in terms of gear/composition, order tactics on game is usually just harder to pull in pugish environment. All this: "dont blob spread out, now come together bomb, we need this 1(or nonexistent) am somehow pump whole wb" requires far more communication than simple: stick together and bomb on my command.

ΤHIS ^^^

Most order groups die before you get a chance to morale bomb... please try again

Its not morale, also mara's morale preventer as been bugged and not working since it was changed which also as been a boost to order in the morale battles... but nobody mentions this because nobody is probably aware or cares

I mention it a few times but no one cares, so destro marauders are probably gimping themselves running a broken tactic for a month or so without knowing it doesnt work ... still order get farmed because of their glaring obvious other learn to play issues which people conviently overlook time and time again... Weak assist, weak positioning, some are psychologically broken before fight even begins ...

Montague had way better assist and positioning that other order guilds should aspire too... if they can do it why can't others

If order learn how to spread and fight then who are destro going to morale lol, who they going to aoe...

You make it sound easy, but its only order beating itself by playing right into destro hands... what both sides want to do is very predictable... just alot of order groups like to stack up nice and tightly to die together, especially the healers all stand together so one CC can destroy your entire wb

[teiloh]

If order learn how to spread and fight then who are destro going to morale lol, who they going to aoe...

You make it sound easy, but its only order beating itself by playing right into destro hands... what both sides want to do is very predictable... just alot of order groups like to stack up nice and tightly to die together, especially the healers all stand together so one CC can destroy your entire wb

Your argument here is extremely simplistic. Having, for example, Focused Mind up on every single healer/RDPS in 0-4 seconds of contact is a massive game changer considering the average fight is decided within 10-20 seconds (which is how long it takes to build just past M1 in a 24v24 setting). We're not just talking the braindead damage morale dump. Just one Shammy using one tactic mindlessly will get his group to M2 within 10 seconds, max.

Sham for example can have Fury of Da Green spammed constantly because Choppa CD reducer lasts 20 whole seconds and doesn't require a target, and they can do this with Focused mind halfway into that. Playing an AM I know how insanely powerful this combination is.

Meanwhile a DoK can simply delete 60-80% of Order's damage rotation, CC and debuffs on an entire party after they spend 10-15 seconds setting it up.

[kmark101]

Why everyone in this thread keeps ignoring the glaring huge imbalance with the morale gameplay and how easy is to drop morales on destro compared to order (considering same skills with movement + get to the choppa pull spam). There are organized Order guilds are literally disbanding every week because they realize they hit the brick wall in morale play and see no possible way to overcome this... how long is this going to be denied as the primary factor why "more competitive players tend to reroll to destro"?

[kmark101]

Montague had way better assist and positioning that other order guilds should aspire too... if they can do it why can't others

So you solution is that every random player on Order should play on Montague level to have a chance? Meanwhile destro scrubs can do whatever semi-organized pugging with medicore movement and still win by default, because the other side is not playing on the highest possible top level 100% of the time?

[dansari]

Montague had way better assist and positioning that other order guilds should aspire too... if they can do it why can't others

So you solution is that every random player on Order should play on Montague level to have a chance? Meanwhile destro scrubs can do whatever semi-organized pugging with medicore movement and still win by default, because the other side is not playing on the highest possible top level 100% of the time?

Nah it's that every destro player assists and every order player doesn't, clearly. It's NOT the most obvious answer.

[Wam]

If order learn how to spread and fight then who are destro going to morale lol, who they going to aoe...

You make it sound easy, but its only order beating itself by playing right into destro hands... what both sides want to do is very predictable... just alot of order groups like to stack up nice and tightly to die together, especially the healers all stand together so one CC can destroy your entire wb

Your argument here is extremely simplistic. Having, for example, Focused Mind up on every single healer/RDPS in 0-4 seconds of contact is a massive game changer considering the average fight is decided within 10-20 seconds (which is how long it takes to build just past M1 in a 24v24 setting). We're not just talking the braindead damage morale dump. Just one Shammy using one tactic mindlessly will get his group to M2 within 10 seconds, max.

Sham for example can have Fury of Da Green spammed constantly because Choppa CD reducer lasts 20 whole seconds and doesn't require a target, and they can do this with Focused mind halfway into that. Playing an AM I know how insanely powerful this combination is.

Meanwhile a DoK can simply delete 60-80% of Order's damage rotation, CC and debuffs on an entire party after they spend 10-15 seconds setting it up.

Every group would need a shaman for their morales to be in sync... it also takes away its own survial/healing potential... so bait out the morale or drain it and its pretty wasted and in longer lasting fight it will count against them... Also not that many good shamans around too.

Top tier shamans are great and all but they are few and far between. There is no way every destro instance is going to have 4 pro shamans and doks (what about the zealots )

Its a niche if you go this route and ive done it but the more extreme version in orvr for a event... still think proper setup is superior because niche setup is very one "trick pony" what if you mess up morale bomb or it get countered etc... it puts too many eggs in one basket.

wouldnt know about rdps heavy in city as ive run almost 0 rdps in cities and been a champ down in stage 3... technically could run a 8 welf setup and get similar results with alot of compositions we end up facing, but serious ones like montague, vii lob etc would cope with that alot easier ...