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The "Best PVP MMORPG" - what?

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thewilling
Posts: 5

The "Best PVP MMORPG" - what?

Post#1 » Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:09 pm

I got into this game hard these past few weeks, leveling a ton of classes through T1 and into T2 and this game has to be one of the most unbalanced games I've ever played.

You can somewhat compete in T1 as long as you keep upgrading your gear as you level but as soon as you step into T2+ as a fresh level 16 you'll be insta-deleted. You do negligible damage if any gets through your target's defenses and if an enemy so much as sneezes in your direction you'll be clicking respawn.

You can equip your obliterator's set at 17 but it makes no difference at all. Even in scenarios where it's levels 16-39 you'll get absolutely destroyed by any higher level or geared player. The sheer impact of gear in PVP is laughable, it makes certain players bosses and others nothing more than trash mobs.

Here you have a scenario where a level 38 Choppa dealt more damage than ALL of our DPS combined: https://imgur.com/a/s7yi6dl

So not only do you have to endure being near worthless on your respawn-clicking adventure to max level, but once you actually get to 40 the difference between you and a geared player is even more extreme as bolstering is no longer in effect.

Rather than more subtle improvements to certain aspects of your build, the next few tiers of gear and especially the last set make characters absolute monsters that slap around the fresh 40s that haven't put in the many months of grind that are required to get the gear.

So all these new players (and I am one of them) asking if they can be viable with x class or y build need to realize that they won't be viable at all unless they put in the tons of hours it requires to offset the gear imbalance in this game and that'll only come after being repeatedly stomped on your journey to 40 and then continue after that once you hop on the gear treadmill.

It's especially frustrating because I thought I'd love to battle it out in the open world but that's just not possible. For a game that needs a strong population to function it's sad to see the leveling and early 40s experience be so shitty. With just a few changes this imbalance could be remedied somewhat, but I've read that the devs aren't "taking proposals" ; so with that attitude and seeing that they themselves added this treadmill and have probably gone through it by now I don't see a change happening any time soon.

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Aurandilaz
Posts: 1802

Re: The "Best PVP MMORPG" - what?

Post#2 » Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:06 pm

I'm not sure what you have read about the bolster, but it turns well geared late 10s and 20s into monsters due to their base stats being modified and slapped to level 48+ region, being able to hit higher than normal 40s and remain tankier if specced so.
Lot of new players are already figuring how to minmax said bolster, and this results in said bolster minmaxers having absurd advantage in both Scs and RvR, assuming they know what they are doing to get the most out of it. And to get most out of it, you should play organized, sharing even more buffs between party members, and become ever more stronger.

Also, eventually you will come to the realization that the side with larger numbers usually wins, gear is of little difference. If its a local 4v1 fight or 5v2 fight, or 200v150 fight, numbers are usually the deciding factor. In smaller fights, sure gear will play a role, but so will class synergies and team compositions, as well as player game knowledge/"skill".

T4 lakes are atm full of newbies on both sides, and everyone keeps chaotically dying as one blob goes one way and the other the other way.

Devs are taking suggestions, but they would have to be more well thought than a simple "buff me so I can fight people who have spent years gaining experience/skills/teamsynergy on equal terms" or "nerf everyone down to my level so everyone fights like a newly born lvl 16 first time in T4".

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Glorian
Posts: 4611

Re: The "Best PVP MMORPG" - what?

Post#3 » Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:10 pm

Buffs of Runepriests for example are a lot higher if you are a bolstered lvl 48 than on a top geared lvl 40 Runi in Endgear.

gaston
Posts: 9

Re: The "Best PVP MMORPG" - what?

Post#4 » Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:21 pm

Yeah I understand its frustrating being new and not understanding the game mechanics and losing hard to those who do, I've been there and a lot of times I still am.

Things like obliterator set make a difference, but that's only 3 pieces out of 11, so its not going to bolster you to the level of someone who has set gear/epics in 11/11 slots. Honestly running Sewers/Sacellum for Keepers would probably be better than Oblit so you can get 5set pieces from that.

It sounds like a lack of gear issue here, I got lucky enough to have some good low level pieces for a lvl 18 Slayer alt + Keeper and he's currently wrecking at dps.

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Wiede
Posts: 237

Re: The "Best PVP MMORPG" - what?

Post#5 » Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:34 pm

I see so many complains about this and yet everyone fails to gear up properly!

Get proper gear, socket your talis and own... At the latest with lvl25 you're a real thread to anything.

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=36617&start=10#p399393
In this thread i posted my lvl20, that has partly higher stats than most lvl40 chosen.

Sure you miss 3-4 skills and some tactics, some classes have their peaks at t1 and drop from there, some classes have their peak with RR70, but to say you are doomed to be useless is just a lie.

Another (better) example: Volgo and his lvl29 BG hunting lvl40s of the "most op classes 1vs1" ingame like WL, AM.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvSgnqHXiY8

thewilling
Posts: 5

Re: The "Best PVP MMORPG" - what?

Post#6 » Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:52 pm

Aurandilaz wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:06 pm
"buff me so I can fight people who have spent years gaining experience/skills/teamsynergy on equal terms" or "nerf everyone down to my level so everyone fights like a newly born lvl 16 first time in T4".

When did I mention game sense, knowledge, skill, or coordination in my post? Or about balancing around level 16? Reading comprehension? I specifically addressed the immense imbalance that GEAR causes in PVP, which is especially prevalent when entering T2-T4 or when trying to gear a fresh 40. The difference that gear makes is insane and there is no experience or skill to implement when an enemy spammable takes off a quarter or third of your HP. Don't equate right clicking a few pieces of nice gear with skill. It's not fun for lowbies or anyone that needs to embark on this gear treadmill to be at all relevant. Just because most RvR is zergs running over each other and numbers matter doesn't mean you ignore individual stats, abilities, builds, etc and their impact.

Wiede wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:34 pm
I see so many complains about this and yet everyone fails to gear up properly!

Get proper gear, socket your talis and own... At the latest with lvl25 you're a real thread to anything.

Sure you miss 3-4 skills and some tactics, some classes have their peaks at t1 and drop from there, some classes have their peak with RR70, but to say you are doomed to be useless is just a lie.

Sure you can grind out some "proper" gear then beg or grind some more for talismans just to not be insta deleted and be able to dumpster lesser geared players in scenarios just as you'll continue to be dumpstered by higher renown and better geared players. And then you out level the gear or reach 40 and what? That doesn't change the fundamental problem of gear imbalance.

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EsthelielSunfury
Posts: 105

Re: The "Best PVP MMORPG" - what?

Post#7 » Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:01 pm

thewilling wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:52 pm
Aurandilaz wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:06 pm
"buff me so I can fight people who have spent years gaining experience/skills/teamsynergy on equal terms" or "nerf everyone down to my level so everyone fights like a newly born lvl 16 first time in T4".

When did I mention game sense, knowledge, skill, or coordination in my post? Or about balancing around level 16? Reading comprehension? I specifically addressed the immense imbalance that GEAR causes in PVP, which is especially prevalent when entering T2-T4 or when trying to gear a fresh 40. The difference that gear makes is insane and there is no experience or skill to implement when an enemy spammable takes off a quarter or third of your HP. Don't equate right clicking a few pieces of nice gear with skill. It's not fun for lowbies or anyone that needs to embark on this gear treadmill to be at all relevant. Just because most RvR is zergs running over each other and numbers matter doesn't mean you ignore individual stats, abilities, builds, etc and their impact.

Wiede wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:34 pm
I see so many complains about this and yet everyone fails to gear up properly!

Get proper gear, socket your talis and own... At the latest with lvl25 you're a real thread to anything.

Sure you miss 3-4 skills and some tactics, some classes have their peaks at t1 and drop from there, some classes have their peak with RR70, but to say you are doomed to be useless is just a lie.

Sure you can grind out some "proper" gear then beg or grind some more for talismans just to not be insta deleted and be able to dumpster lesser geared players in scenarios just as you'll continue to be dumpstered by higher renown and better geared players. And then you out level the gear or reach 40 and what? That doesn't change the fundamental problem of gear imbalance.
You can have a look at the thread I made about this very same issue, Head GM basically answered it, but there's a lot of hilarious posts in it from people that have never played other PvP games apart from this one. If you think something like this will get changed, have a look at that thread and watch what the community thinks - you'll finally understand why we need a new RvR game so badly.

Foofmonger
Posts: 204

Re: The "Best PVP MMORPG" - what?

Post#8 » Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:04 pm

Sure you can grind out some "proper" gear then beg or grind some more for talismans just to not be insta deleted and be able to dumpster lesser geared players in scenarios just as you'll continue to be dumpstered by higher renown and better geared players. And then you out level the gear or reach 40 and what? That doesn't change the fundamental problem of gear imbalance.
There is no fundamental problem of gear imbalance, that's literally a feature of PVP MMOs and is there by design. If you want a perfectly level playing field, MOBAs and Battle Royale games are that way ----------->

What there is a fundamental problem with is how the gear progression works, which I agree with your OP on. The problem is not that you have to fight better geared opponents, thats how this game is supposed to work. The real problem is that the grind to get the better gear has custom designed artificial walls that have been put in place by this dev team to stop progress. Example: The Invader gear wall in which you have to grind forts to get, and there is no other way, which is an artificially and annoying grind that doesn't need to exist int he scope that it does today.

Also, another major issue is knowing "how to get gear" at 40. It's not hard to get in "competitive enough" gear. You just don't have a guide telling you what to get or where to go to get it. I just rolled up on this server 3 weeks ago, and I literally just went through the 0-40 grind. I've been right here with you. I'm now RR64, and I have no issues competing, even with people who have better gear than I, but I've played this game before on live and I have a general understanding of how the gearing and sets work.

For instance, as a fresh 40, you have a couple gear goals:

1. Get your Conqueror or Dominator set (depending on what class and build you are going for) ASAP (or go and get a comparable PVE set you want). The best way to do this is to downgrade your Vanquisher or Oppressor emblems (for Conq and Dom respectively) as they down-convert into 5 tokens each. That means you can turn every Vanq or Oppressor into 5x the amount of Conqs/Dominators. This should let you get your first "40" set in just a few days at most.
2. Do the Beastlord Quests and/or fight in ORVR for zone flips to get Genesis set jewelry (drops in blue+ bags), and Subjugator purple weapons (drop in purple+ bags).
3. Make sure to use talismans in all your gear. Buy the best ones you can afford for the correct stats.
4. POTS POTS POTS POTS!!!! Are you using a decent armor pot and or liniment/stat pot? No? Then you shouldn't be out in RVR at 40, you just played yourself. Do you have AP and Heal pots from the vendors? Use your officer medallions on them in IC. Also go buy heal pots from the auction house, they stack with your officer medal heal pots so you can heal twice (they don't share the same cooldown).

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Vlad333
Posts: 42

Re: The "Best PVP MMORPG" - what?

Post#9 » Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:07 pm

Wiede wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:34 pm
I see so many complains about this and yet everyone fails to gear up properly!

Get proper gear, socket your talis and own... At the latest with lvl25 you're a real thread to anything.

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=36617&start=10#p399393
In this thread i posted my lvl20, that has partly higher stats than most lvl40 chosen.

Sure you miss 3-4 skills and some tactics, some classes have their peaks at t1 and drop from there, some classes have their peak with RR70, but to say you are doomed to be useless is just a lie.

Another (better) example: Volgo and his lvl29 BG hunting lvl40s of the "most op classes 1vs1" ingame like WL, AM.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvSgnqHXiY8
The complaint is legitimate, regardless of your examples.
The experience is a terrible mess. The skill factor in this game is close to nil. I find no possibility of outplaying anyone, most spells are bland and just very few gimmicks that you can do. Maybe fake a cast to bait a taunt or punting some loser off a bridge, stuff like that, things that are done in other games way better, since they are fluid, not a clunky mess.
You are telling us of "proper gear". You go into SC's and you buy the SC set available for your gear. That should be proper gear. I can max it out with talis and whatnot, will not make a difference against a 38 destro who is humping us in SC's.
Besides the whole mess of being forced to find premades and playing with someone everyday, or else you are stuck to queueing only one map out of 30, where you still lose because there are 2 man premades everywhere and destro being just better.
I, as any other guy here, like the game, otherwise i would never put up with this crap. I have never seen in all my gaming life ( 20 years ) such an imbalanced experience.
Having to win 1 t2 sc in 2 days of gameplay is something that is mathematically impossible in other games, that are objectively worse than this one. Even if you are the most epic trash player, you will still have above 40% win rate as you can get carried by others.
Of course, i do not want to be carried, that is not what i advocate for, i just know for a fact the game has to be broken or rigged. I made a calculus and i have 96% loss rate since i made lvl 16 on my IB. 97% loss rate on my BW in t2.
T1 feels the most balanced, to be honest.
I really prefer more mature answers than "git gud" and such because the mechanical level of the game is very easy, and i have played other games with a way higher skill floor and ceiling. This is not a hard game by any means. Not because of mechanics at least.
I mean, sometimes i press things so fast that the game cannot compute. Even doing the most basic mmo trash trick like popping an instant spell after a casted one feels clunky.
Also, specs are shoehorned into their archetype, proving my point that skill has nothing to do with most outcomes. The moment you are playing a dps WP, you are gimping yourself, same with other examples like 2h tanks or w/e other offspec you can think of. That is an actual proof of bad balance, because the game was intended for those to happen, otherwise the option would not exist. They should work. I shouldn't wait for ultra endgame gear to be a viable 2h warrior priest. Just an example.
I can go on and tarnish this game but for what it's worth, i still kinda like it because it is the only Warhammer MMO experience.

Oh, and please let us newer guys how to gear properly, and i'm not sarcastic. I want to know. I already keep up with talismans on every new gear piece that i get.

Foofmonger
Posts: 204

Re: The "Best PVP MMORPG" - what?

Post#10 » Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:15 pm

Vlad333 wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:07 pm
Wiede wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:34 pm
I see so many complains about this and yet everyone fails to gear up properly!

Get proper gear, socket your talis and own... At the latest with lvl25 you're a real thread to anything.

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=36617&start=10#p399393
In this thread i posted my lvl20, that has partly higher stats than most lvl40 chosen.

Sure you miss 3-4 skills and some tactics, some classes have their peaks at t1 and drop from there, some classes have their peak with RR70, but to say you are doomed to be useless is just a lie.

Another (better) example: Volgo and his lvl29 BG hunting lvl40s of the "most op classes 1vs1" ingame like WL, AM.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvSgnqHXiY8
The complaint is legitimate, regardless of your examples.
The experience is a terrible mess. The skill factor in this game is close to nil. I find no possibility of outplaying anyone, most spells are bland and just very few gimmicks that you can do. Maybe fake a cast to bait a taunt or punting some loser off a bridge, stuff like that, things that are done in other games way better, since they are fluid, not a clunky mess.
You are telling us of "proper gear". You go into SC's and you buy the SC set available for your gear. That should be proper gear. I can max it out with talis and whatnot, will not make a difference against a 38 destro who is humping us in SC's.
Besides the whole mess of being forced to find premades and playing with someone everyday, or else you are stuck to queueing only one map out of 30, where you still lose because there are 2 man premades everywhere and destro being just better.
I, as any other guy here, like the game, otherwise i would never put up with this crap. I have never seen in all my gaming life ( 20 years ) such an imbalanced experience.
Having to win 1 t2 sc in 2 days of gameplay is something that is mathematically impossible in other games, that are objectively worse than this one. Even if you are the most epic trash player, you will still have above 40% win rate as you can get carried by others.
Of course, i do not want to be carried, that is not what i advocate for, i just know for a fact the game has to be broken or rigged. I made a calculus and i have 96% loss rate since i made lvl 16 on my IB. 97% loss rate on my BW in t2.
T1 feels the most balanced, to be honest.
I really prefer more mature answers than "git gud" and such because the mechanical level of the game is very easy, and i have played other games with a way higher skill floor and ceiling. This is not a hard game by any means. Not because of mechanics at least.
I mean, sometimes i press things so fast that the game cannot compute. Even doing the most basic mmo trash trick like popping an instant spell after a casted one feels clunky.
Also, specs are shoehorned into their archetype, proving my point that skill has nothing to do with most outcomes. The moment you are playing a dps WP, you are gimping yourself, same with other examples like 2h tanks or w/e other offspec you can think of. That is an actual proof of bad balance, because the game was intended for those to happen, otherwise the option would not exist. They should work. I shouldn't wait for ultra endgame gear to be a viable 2h warrior priest. Just an example.
I can go on and tarnish this game but for what it's worth, i still kinda like it because it is the only Warhammer MMO experience.

Oh, and please let us newer guys how to gear properly, and i'm not sarcastic. I want to know. I already keep up with talismans on every new gear piece that i get.
Look, I have to say this. I disagree with almost everything you've said in this post. I've played almost every PVP MMO that's ever been released, and the skill ceiling in this game is actually quite high. I just don't think you understand what you are talking about, as a new player. I'm not trying to be rude, or dismissive here of your concerns, but you aren't even close to being correct.

That being said, I see you had an ask, and a question, and just because I disagree with you, doesn't mean I am unwilling to help you.

Here's a very quick guide on how to gear yourself once you hit level 40:

1. Get your Conqueror or Dominator set (depending on what class and build you are going for) ASAP (or go and get a comparable PVE set you want). The best way to do this is to downgrade your Vanquisher or Oppressor emblems (for Conq and Dom respectively) as they down-convert into 5 tokens each. That means you can turn every Vanq or Oppressor into 5x the amount of Conqs/Dominators. This should let you get your first "40" set in just a few days at most.
2. Do the Beastlord Quests and/or fight in ORVR for zone flips to get Genesis set jewelry (drops in blue+ bags), and Subjugator purple weapons (drop in purple+ bags).
3. Make sure to use talismans in all your gear. Buy the best ones you can afford for the correct stats.
4. POTS POTS POTS POTS!!!! Are you using a decent armor pot and or liniment/stat pot? No? Then you shouldn't be out in RVR at 40, you just played yourself. Do you have AP and Heal pots from the vendors? Use your officer medallions on them in IC. Also go buy heal pots from the auction house, they stack with your officer medal heal pots so you can heal twice (they don't share the same cooldown).

For pre-level 40, you generally speaking, have 2 choices of gear set for every "tier bracket", that means levels 1-11, 12-21, 22-31, 32-39, (and then a lot of sets after 40). You want to make sure you are buying one of these sets every one of these brackets. They either drop from scenarios, or ORVR, so just make sure you look at the sets (they are your capital city at the vendors) and pick which one you want before you level to the appropriate level, this way you can see if you need to do ORVR or Scenario to farm the appropriate tokens. For the rest of your gear, the vendors in the capital city, also sell green items, such as jewlery, belts, and cloaks, which you can buy to keep yourself geared up until you hit 40, these all scale with the tiers I mentioned above, so there are level 10 versions, 20 version, etc... You also can buy weapons from the scenario merchant dudes, so if you want to go get the ORVR gear, do that and then do some scenario and make sure to get your weapon upgrades as well.

Thats the basic/rough guide there. I'm happy to answer more questions if you have on how to gear, but not interested in hearing about your opinions on how skillful this game is, since you are new and honestly, you don't know.

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