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PUG and Premade City instances

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adapter
Suspended
Posts: 420

Re: PUG and Premade City instances

Post#61 » Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:26 pm

Allow for 24 warband to only fight against 24 warbands...

...same for 12v12...12 and 12 vs 12 and 12

and instances only for solo/duos/6man

Let organized fight organized and let PUGs fight PUGs!!!

#makeitfairforeveryone
Kabuchop / Kabusquig / Kabuterimon / Tentomon

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Mistdancer
Posts: 51

Re: PUG and Premade City instances

Post#62 » Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:33 pm

Hecksa wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:38 pm
Mistdancer wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 8:31 pm Keywords : equal odds & terms
Sure, this is the idealist stance. We''d all love for every city instance to be perfectly balanced. How are you going to achieve it?

Some premade warbands are much better than others. Should the less good ones be forced to lose against the better ones convincingly and repeatedly? Or, again, are you saying the bad warbands have to split up and play as pugs to get a fair fight?
Idealism and realism has nothing to do with this. Your question has been answered numerous times. Mode 1 : Premade vs Premade only. Mode 2: Randoms vs Randoms only. If a less good premade that keeps on losing, keeps on queuing for a Prem vs Prem, then they really care about that "competition" everyone so effortlessly mutters about, but no one puts their money where their mouth is when it comes down to actually implementing it, formally and structurally. If not, they can always queue a PUG sc/city/instance for some ACTUAL random challenge.

Choices for everyone. Everyone wins.

Do you know which group is the only one who loses? The premaders who roar like lions about said competition, but only fight pugs to farm them for gear and rr. When it comes down to actually discussing the possibility of a mode that puts them up against others geared/prepared/communicated just like them, they suddenly turn to kittens making up excuses about how unfair the world really is, and other similar grocery store philosophies. It is rather simple really.

So to answer your reiterated former question. Competition. Competition ITSELF is their reward, since they profess to do it because they wanna play in a challenging and competitive environment. Unless there is a hint of hypocrisy in those loudmouth statements. Juss sayn

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Vayra
Posts: 577

Re: PUG and Premade City instances

Post#63 » Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:47 pm

Mistdancer wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:33 pm
Hecksa wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:38 pm
Mistdancer wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 8:31 pm Keywords : equal odds & terms
Sure, this is the idealist stance. We''d all love for every city instance to be perfectly balanced. How are you going to achieve it?

Some premade warbands are much better than others. Should the less good ones be forced to lose against the better ones convincingly and repeatedly? Or, again, are you saying the bad warbands have to split up and play as pugs to get a fair fight?
Idealism and realism has nothing to do with this. Your question has been answered numerous times. Mode 1 : Premade vs Premade only. Mode 2: Randoms vs Randoms only. If a less good premade that keeps on losing, keeps on queuing for a Prem vs Prem, then they really care about that "competition" everyone so effortlessly mutters about, but no one puts their money where their mouth is when it comes down to actually implementing it, formally and structurally. If not, they can always queue a PUG sc/city/instance for some ACTUAL random challenge.

Choices for everyone. Everyone wins.

Do you know which group is the only one who loses? The premaders who roar like lions about said competition, but only fight pugs to farm them for gear and rr. When it comes to actually discussing the possibility of a mode that puts them up against others geared/prepared/communicated just like them, they suddenly turn to kittens making up excuses about how unfair the world really is, and other similar grocery store philosophies. It is rather simple really.
Ok, say that is implemented. Where do 6/12man premades go? Or what about the pugs who decide to group up to get a semblance of balance before going in? Should they, who are barely more than randoms themselves, be faced against full premades on voice? The devs have made a big point of rewarding grouping up and organizing over soloing in the past, I don't see why they should change that philosophy now.
Vayra - Sorc
Forkrul - DoK
Kalyth - BG

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Mistdancer
Posts: 51

Re: PUG and Premade City instances

Post#64 » Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:01 pm

Vayra wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:47 pm Ok, say that is implemented. Where do 6/12man premades go? Or what about the pugs who decide to group up to get a semblance of balance before going in? Should they, who are barely more than randoms themselves, be faced against full premades on voice? The devs have made a big point of rewarding grouping up and organizing over soloing in the past, I don't see why they should change that philosophy now.
1) The first is a more technical/coding question easily fixable if, as you say, there are such intentions visible. If you can have a 24 v 24 prem instance, you can also code a 6 v 6 one, and so on.

2) Yes they do have a history of promoting grouping up, and yes they wouldn't probably change their stance just like that, but this is a forum. Ideas are discussed here. Arguments are made and finally those involved can draw conclusions and criticism on the ethos and the depth and the integrity and the logic of other peoples stances and deliberations, regardless of the futility of it all. Hopefully - that is.

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Hecksa
Posts: 26

Re: PUG and Premade City instances

Post#65 » Sun Apr 05, 2020 4:23 am

Mistdancer wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:01 pm 2) Yes they do have a history of promoting grouping up, and yes they wouldn't probably change their stance just like that, but this is a forum. Ideas are discussed here. Arguments are made and finally those involved can draw conclusions and criticism on the ethos and the depth and the integrity and the logic of other peoples stances and deliberations, regardless of the futility of it all. Hopefully - that is.

Sure, but by that token we could just as well suggest making the city 100% PvE. That'd fix the issue of pugs being slapped around too, but you're fundamentally changing the game. Discouraging group play is the same thing, for me - it's not a solution at all. The endgame content of a game that is about group PvP should be group PvP. From a certain point of view, being able to play it at all without a group is quite a concession from that focus, to be honest - though I'm glad you can.

Mistdancer wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:33 pm Do you know which group is the only one who loses? The premaders who roar like lions about said competition, but only fight pugs to farm them for gear and rr. When it comes down to actually discussing the possibility of a mode that puts them up against others geared/prepared/communicated just like them, they suddenly turn to kittens making up excuses about how unfair the world really is, and other similar grocery store philosophies. It is rather simple really.

So to answer your reiterated former question. Competition. Competition ITSELF is their reward, since they profess to do it because they wanna play in a challenging and competitive environment. Unless there is a hint of hypocrisy in those loudmouth statements. Juss sayn

I've played in plenty of premades and I can assure you, I've never really been interested in "competition", in terms of 24vs24 or 6v6. "Rewarding" me with that is not interesting to me, and a number of other people I've played with too. Sure, some are interested in seeing who's got the better warband, but a lot aren't. For me, warbands originally drew me in for fighting against large numbers in ORvR, but that's not the point. I go into the city with a warband to have a better chance of winning, just like I'd do PvE with my guild to have a better chance of success. It's as simple as that.

Suppose you were doing an endgame PvE instance. You've wiped a few times because your tank doesn't know how to hold aggro, your healer is wearing a DPS set, etc. You go talk to your guildmates and set up a group of guildies who can run the thing together.

However, when you go in, it's suddenly twice as hard. You keep wiping, despite having correctly geared players who have spent time learning strategies for each boss. After a few hours, you give in. The game has levelled up the dungeon, because you had the audacity to come in there with players you know understand their role, and are capable of doing it properly.

At this point, you're frustrated. How can you improve your chances of getting your gear? You can go back to pugging, and hope to hit the lottery with a decent group, or you can keep trying with your guildies to get better. While you and your guildies are improving, though, the instance difficulty is slightly increasing week by week too. Are you just supposed to just keep running it and get lucky with groups enough times to earn your gear? Where does skill or organisation play a part in this? Do you not get rewarded for trying to learn the instance?

This is what you'd be putting in front of guilds trying to run the city. Sure, you can try to better yourselves and increase your chances of getting the gear, but if you do that, we're going to move the goalposts for you. If you don't like that, you can go back to pugging. In other words, don't bother trying to improve at the game. Keep doing what you're doing. There's no incentive to get better here.

I agree pugs getting stomped is not a good thing for anyone. However, in my opinion, if you protect them, you have to reward the premades that would otherwise be stomping them, because those premades would likely have won any of those other instances if they had been in them. Just like in my example, you've taken away the PvE instance that they've tried to get a decent group together for, and put a much harder one in it's place, because "they should have a challenge". So, either let them do the easy instance, or reward them for being better than that.

carlos1103
Posts: 50

Re: PUG and Premade City instances

Post#66 » Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:40 am

Wow WAR was far more peaceful when the peak of players was like 1K and there was no city... I played many MMOs and I think WAR has one of the most fair systems in order to get end-game gear: no p2w, no extreme grinding, no 0.01% loot chance, no needing an insane amount of money to buy gear that someone farmed... etc etc

Why would the devs reward low effort? You still get plenty of rewards for doing NOTHING, just staying afk in forts or cities. (Most of the time in RVR there's like 20-30 ppl in warcamp afk)

Meta is in every competitive game and if you are having fun with a class that is not "meta", whats the problem? I played SW for a long time and still had fun and I'm sure there's "meta" classes that you would enjoy anyways.

I have been in a couple of cities and the ones that complain the most are the ones with low gear/doesn't know how to play their class. I know that fighting against a guild/premades is not fun butyou can still get rewards for trying, I changed my build and I went from winning 3-5 invaders on average to 12 in 1 run and having top 3 contribution on each stage.

So to sum up, if you are not having fun just try other game. Even with its flaws I enjoy playing this game and I hope to see more content in the future so people have more reasons to stay.

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Mistdancer
Posts: 51

Re: PUG and Premade City instances

Post#67 » Sun Apr 05, 2020 8:15 am

Hecksa wrote: Sun Apr 05, 2020 4:23 am
Mistdancer wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:01 pm 2) Yes they do have a history of promoting grouping up, and yes they wouldn't probably change their stance just like that, but this is a forum. Ideas are discussed here. Arguments are made and finally those involved can draw conclusions and criticism on the ethos and the depth and the integrity and the logic of other peoples stances and deliberations, regardless of the futility of it all. Hopefully - that is.

Sure, but by that token we could just as well suggest making the city 100% PvE. That'd fix the issue of pugs being slapped around too, but you're fundamentally changing the game. Discouraging group play is the same thing, for me - it's not a solution at all. The endgame content of a game that is about group PvP should be group PvP. From a certain point of view, being able to play it at all without a group is quite a concession from that focus, to be honest - though I'm glad you can.

Mistdancer wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:33 pm Do you know which group is the only one who loses? The premaders who roar like lions about said competition, but only fight pugs to farm them for gear and rr. When it comes down to actually discussing the possibility of a mode that puts them up against others geared/prepared/communicated just like them, they suddenly turn to kittens making up excuses about how unfair the world really is, and other similar grocery store philosophies. It is rather simple really.

So to answer your reiterated former question. Competition. Competition ITSELF is their reward, since they profess to do it because they wanna play in a challenging and competitive environment. Unless there is a hint of hypocrisy in those loudmouth statements. Juss sayn

I've played in plenty of premades and I can assure you, I've never really been interested in "competition", in terms of 24vs24 or 6v6. "Rewarding" me with that is not interesting to me, and a number of other people I've played with too. Sure, some are interested in seeing who's got the better warband, but a lot aren't. For me, warbands originally drew me in for fighting against large numbers in ORvR, but that's not the point. I go into the city with a warband to have a better chance of winning, just like I'd do PvE with my guild to have a better chance of success. It's as simple as that.

Suppose you were doing an endgame PvE instance. You've wiped a few times because your tank doesn't know how to hold aggro, your healer is wearing a DPS set, etc. You go talk to your guildmates and set up a group of guildies who can run the thing together.

However, when you go in, it's suddenly twice as hard. You keep wiping, despite having correctly geared players who have spent time learning strategies for each boss. After a few hours, you give in. The game has levelled up the dungeon, because you had the audacity to come in there with players you know understand their role, and are capable of doing it properly.

At this point, you're frustrated. How can you improve your chances of getting your gear? You can go back to pugging, and hope to hit the lottery with a decent group, or you can keep trying with your guildies to get better. While you and your guildies are improving, though, the instance difficulty is slightly increasing week by week too. Are you just supposed to just keep running it and get lucky with groups enough times to earn your gear? Where does skill or organisation play a part in this? Do you not get rewarded for trying to learn the instance?

This is what you'd be putting in front of guilds trying to run the city. Sure, you can try to better yourselves and increase your chances of getting the gear, but if you do that, we're going to move the goalposts for you. If you don't like that, you can go back to pugging. In other words, don't bother trying to improve at the game. Keep doing what you're doing. There's no incentive to get better here.

I agree pugs getting stomped is not a good thing for anyone. However, in my opinion, if you protect them, you have to reward the premades that would otherwise be stomping them, because those premades would likely have won any of those other instances if they had been in them. Just like in my example, you've taken away the PvE instance that they've tried to get a decent group together for, and put a much harder one in it's place, because "they should have a challenge". So, either let them do the easy instance, or reward them for being better than that.

a)That is a gross exaggeration and a false dilemma. Premade vs Premade and PUG vs PUG does not equal discouraging group play or, obviously, turning the city event into pve.

b) You are able to play it without a group right now. You can solo queue.

c) The only focus that is conceded from the suggestions discussed here, is the ability of guild warbands to ez mod farm. Don't misrepresent the case and don't mislead.

d) I am glad you are at least somewhat calling things what they are, when admitting that you prefer premades farming pugs, because that gives you more gear faster provided that you are part of said warbands. That was the exact misconception that I meant to dispel. The fact that supposedly premaders do it for the thrill of organized play as they so eagerly advertise.

e) The pve analogy has no grounds for the following reasons: i) People who lose to premades are not people who necessarily do not know how to play (like those in your example). More often than not, they don't have the gear, the communication or the setup, or just maybe, they don't want to be part of the brainless farming of easy targets. ii) Again, for the millionth time in this thread. Making premades face other premades is not making "the dungeon" harder and harder for those who run it. It is making it FAIR. Unless you think that depriving you of the capability of constantly farming something with little or no resistance and instead giving you the option to seek out a fair fight, is a form of punishment. And most importantly iii) Not being able to complete a dungeon (or being able for that matter) does not constitute blatant and gaping gear inequalities serverwide.

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theoddone
Posts: 127

Re: PUG and Premade City instances

Post#68 » Sun Apr 05, 2020 9:29 am

If they were to make a pug city queue, how would the classes that dominate pug meta be balanced?
-Theo

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kok
Posts: 140

Re: PUG and Premade City instances

Post#69 » Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:46 am

Easy fix to City
1)Reward losing side more , like 1/2 or 3/4 what winning side get.
2)Buff the side which lose the first round, like 10% increase in dmg and defend
3)Buff the side which lose the 2nd round, like 10% increase in dmg and defend
4)Tone down AOE in city

The reason why elitism exist is because not only City is rare, the losing side got ****. If the reward is more equal, people are more likely to ignore weakness in their wb.
And you wonder why they chose member? You often saw one whole group ,often have 1-2 member with shitty gear, goes down before the rest.
And because of THAT GROUP everyone got 1 token and not 5.

Key is you can't make pro-elite warband from winning but you sure can make the losing side come back and not rage quit.
Northside-KOTBS ,Southside-SW Westsides-WP Eastside-WH,Rightside-WL
Good Soldier win fight, Good Calvary win field, Good Cannon win Battle, Good logistic win Wars
--Book of Five Rings

M0rw47h
Posts: 898

Re: PUG and Premade City instances

Post#70 » Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:52 am

kok wrote: Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:46 am And because of THAT GROUP everyone got 1 token and not 5.

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