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PUG and Premade City instances

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Orontes
Posts: 178

Re: PUG and Premade City instances

Post#41 » Fri Apr 03, 2020 6:09 pm

wargrimnir wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 2:13 am

The treadmill of the game isn't actually the shiny gear (but it can be for some), it's not even sacking the enemy city. What you're really looking for, if you're here long term, is a challenge.

I've read through the comments of the thread and will use this post to comment from.  I think the following apply:

-Having a happy player base is better than the opposite.
-Choice is generally a good thing.  
-The idea of introducing PUG instances into the City offers more choice over less.
-If a challenge is what is being looked for, crushing PUGs is boring and only valued by pseudo-elites
-If a challenge is what is being looked for, then having instances where top tier guilds can go toe to toe should be embraced, not run from.
-There is already precedence with PUG scenarios.
-There is no harm in having some City instances that are PUG. 
-PUG City instances could be an experiment.  See if they are popular and thereby promote a happy player base.

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Hecksa
Posts: 18

Re: PUG and Premade City instances

Post#42 » Fri Apr 03, 2020 7:58 pm

I don't think the suggestion of pug instances solves anything. It just moves the problem from pugs being wiped repeatedly, to the weakest guild warband being wiped repeatedly.

Instead of people who are completely unorganised and unprepared being punished and discouraged, people who are trying to take the step up and play in a more organised way will be farmed by those who are already organised and used to running organised warbands. Then, they'll likely be discouraged and just go back to pugging. Shouldn't we be encouraging group play, not punishing it?

I believe that this is, in fact, not be a better situation than what we currently have. Better for people who have no desire to play in any kind of group, but worse for some of those who do. Again, remind me whether or not this game is intending to encourage group play? I believe it is.

I'd be interested to hear an answer to this from those who would like to see separate pug and premade cities:
Premades organise, in part, to increase their chances of winning, and therefore getting gear/renown etc faster. While it will make life easier for pugs, your suggested change will remove that benefit. What would you give premade groups as a reward for playing in this harder bracket? Why should they bother? If you say "more medallions" or "more renown", please be specific. How much more? Would a losing premade get a bigger reward than a winning pug, given that the losing premade could almost certainly have won had they fought against the winning pug?

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Detangler
Posts: 384

Re: PUG and Premade City instances

Post#43 » Fri Apr 03, 2020 8:04 pm

I dont think you need to completely separate pug and premade city fights. What I think should be implemented is for the warband leader to toggle a "Looking for a challenge!" button when queuing. Matchmaker will then look for similar numbers on the opposite side and then try to pair them up to fight. No increased rewards, just bragging rights for those players and guilds that actually dont want to pugstomp and enjoy a good fight. If they cant get an enemy team with "Lookin for a challenge" when matchmaker makes all the matches, well then guess they get to pug stomp this time around.
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Hecksa
Posts: 18

Re: PUG and Premade City instances

Post#44 » Fri Apr 03, 2020 8:31 pm

Detangler wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 8:04 pm
"Looking for a challenge!" button

<snip>

No increased rewards, just bragging rights for those players and guilds that actually dont want to pugstomp and enjoy a good fight.
I mean, if it cost no time to implement, sure. The problem is, I don't think that many warbands would click the button, and we'd have made no progress.

Players in premade warbands and pugs aren't that different in that they all want their next set of gear. The number of people in both camps who would genuinely choose a good fight over almost guaranteed gear progression isn't very high, and to be honest I find it quite bizzare that people get looked down on for that. A lot of players claim they care more about fights than gear, and a few genuinely do, but when the choice is there, the vast majority of us take the gear and run.

Orontes
Posts: 178

Re: PUG and Premade City instances

Post#45 » Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:36 am

Hecksa wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 7:58 pm
I don't think the suggestion of pug instances solves anything. It just moves the problem from pugs being wiped repeatedly, to the weakest guild warband being wiped repeatedly.

Instead of people who are completely unorganised and unprepared being punished and discouraged, people who are trying to take the step up and play in a more organised way will be farmed by those who are already organised and used to running organised warbands. Then, they'll likely be discouraged and just go back to pugging. Shouldn't we be encouraging group play, not punishing it?

I believe that this is, in fact, not be a better situation than what we currently have. Better for people who have no desire to play in any kind of group, but worse for some of those who do. Again, remind me whether or not this game is intending to encourage group play? I believe it is.

I'd be interested to hear an answer to this from those who would like to see separate pug and premade cities:
Premades organise, in part, to increase their chances of winning, and therefore getting gear/renown etc faster. While it will make life easier for pugs, your suggested change will remove that benefit. What would you give premade groups as a reward for playing in this harder bracket? Why should they bother? If you say "more medallions" or "more renown", please be specific. How much more? Would a losing premade get a bigger reward than a winning pug, given that the losing premade could almost certainly have won had they fought against the winning pug?

I run in the top tier City warbands. There is no distinction between a PUG City instance and some 2-2-2 with discord. They are all fodder. That's the point. It's clear, as soon as the rosters are visible, before the first stage even begins, what the result will be. There is first contact, and then it's just a question of final kill count. Just today I was in an instance where, when we had finished the slaughter, the final total kill count was 532 to 3. In many ways it reminds of back on Live, twinks that would run around Tier 1 killing lvl 4 etc. and thinking it was some kind of validation of skill.

I like the resurrection of this game. I want it to succeed. The meta that has evolved for the end game is not healthy. It will have a detrimental effect over time. I want, as much as possible, the new blood that as come to the game to stay, promote the game to others, and see things move forward. As stated earlier: a PUG precedence already exists with scenarios. If one wanted a further iteration off of the scenario model, perhaps ranked City Instances could be crafted that give increased rewards for participants. Allow PUG City instances, normal instances for the proverbial premade warband training wheels and then ranked City instances, with higher rewards for participants: for the elite to prove their self conception against the like minded on the other side. Those who really think they are the best should want an avenue to prove it.
Last edited by Orontes on Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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normanis
Posts: 547
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Re: PUG and Premade City instances

Post#46 » Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:46 am

if premades will face premades , than they will **** in forum to each ather ( was some previous month posts) better they counter pugs.
1 good stuff is done taking away armors from gold bags in city siege, atherwise premades will already walk sovereign and rest will suck bone.
p.s i dont practise in city siege for 72+ rr dont have invader gear so new gear is far away. leveling alts when have time out of work and famaly. and i thought wow is grind not game where u login and really can go away from real life.

Panodil
Posts: 224

Re: PUG and Premade City instances

Post#47 » Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:34 am

So we asking for a solo q city with no career restriction. 24 magus vs 24 engie/sw. Sounds fun
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Hypernia
Posts: 102

Re: PUG and Premade City instances

Post#48 » Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:14 am

Martok wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 5:54 pm
Hypernia wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 5:21 pm
Sure the issue is really, really simple. People are complaining because the game isn't what they want and they ignore what it he game actually is.

The optimal setup is a 2-2-2 warband, with competent players, using voice comms, and with mandated class choices and builds.

I have other video from other city instances, to include three separate occasions during which I was in a pre-made Alliance warband with competent, well-known, players using voice comms all in well balanced groups meticulously crafted to support each other. In other words all the magic bullets you cite. And when those fights were over in one specific case we had amassed a grand total of two kills and in another a grand total of four. Our opposition, conversely, racked up over 380 kills in the first case and close to that in the second.

My point here is not to complain about it. My point here is to illustrate there are more things in Warhammer, Hypernia, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

Hypernia wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 5:21 pm
Now, any deviation from that isn't a stylistic choice...

Apologies, but you haven't been paying attention.
Attention to what. I can't even be clear on what your point is? Are you saying the best warbands stomp everyone else to hard? Or are you saying pug warbands with random classes should be on equal footing with premade warbands? Like what are these other things I don't think about?

Also none of these are magic bullets - they are bare minimum requirements to stand a chance versus premades doing the same things.

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Hypernia
Posts: 102

Re: PUG and Premade City instances

Post#49 » Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:22 am

Orontes wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:36 am
I run in the top tier City warbands. There is no distinction between a PUG City instance and some 2-2-2 with discord. They are all fodder. That's the point. It's clear, as soon as the rosters are visible, before the first stage even begins, what the result will be. There is first contact, and then it's just a question of final kill count. Just today I was in an instance where, when we had finished the slaughter, the final total kill count was 532 to 3. In many ways it reminds of back on Live, twinks that would run around Tier 1 killing lvl 4 etc. and thinking it was some kind of validation of skill.
This is kind of the point though, there simply aren't enough players to support multiple hardcore WB guilds on both sides. Realistically the best 1 or 2 guilds will always stomp everyone else. And most of these WB guilds still have recruitment for certain classes because there aren't usually enough people playing the meta tank classes. The idea that new guilds can sprout up to challenge these existing guilds is a fantasy.

The better solution here is to drastically reduce the city S1 timers so that people don't have to deal with getting shitstomped for so long when they are attacking versus an unwinnable matchup.

growill
Posts: 72

Re: PUG and Premade City instances

Post#50 » Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:08 pm

You cannot expect pugs not to queue and to just say "if you don't want to pug vs premades don't queue". That just doesn't work.

I think the best way of doing this would be separating solo queue and wb. The dream would be to have warbands who win give some kind of rank points to their guild/alliance and have instances running battles divided in tiers. and then some space for unranked wb or something

So we could have a proper competitive and rewarding thing going on for top guilds and have pugs still having fun doing all the random stuff they want

about meta: unfortunately meta gameplay is something that exists in every single competitive game and the only thing that changes that are dev's balance patches. That's how it's always been and how it will always be in every pvp game. If you think meta is bad then top players + someone that plays in lower brackets should just have a conference call with devs and try to talk things out

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