Return of Reckoning

TLDR: Why would you play these classes over white lion?
Any reason to play ASW or WH? It seems to be the major consensus that they are both struggling. ASW does well in 6 man groups but outside of that it seems that their mobility is clunky and they do not have many of the tools of the WL. Im baffled that SW dont have at least decent aoe options for their ranged spec, and after talking to high RR players of both SW and WH they do not reccomend their classes. ASW does well in groups but doesnt offer what the WL does, WH has to spec a certain way to fight certain classes, so they can only fight the classes they are specced for. This all just seems silly to me. Am I wrong? Thoughts?
From personal experience, I melt through non parry build WH on my BG like butter and even though in a 1v1 situation ASW do decent against me, if they dont kite me they lose every time. Which is fair I assume, 2h BG is scary but still.

ASW and WH don't always struggle, but they have more fail conditions than Slayer for example. WL is a good class for small and medium scale due to high mobility and burst with aoe detaunt. ASW and WH is better in small scale. While Slayer outperforms everything in all scales.

Playing WH is fun and challenging, and u can easily compare ASW and WL how strong these classes are atm.

Hard mode isn't for everyone.

I love both classes and allow for fast battle thinking. I'm gonna quote this post, that is a sum of every present and future comment in this thread:

Twohandernoob wrote: ↑Sun Feb 02, 2020 2:22 pm Hard mode isn't for everyone.

Hard mode as in a higher skillcap or as in the class is underperforming? I don’t mind a higher ceiling of play,in fact I do enjoy the challenge, but being challenged because your class is bad is another subject .

Arthem wrote: ↑Sun Feb 02, 2020 2:11 pm ASW and WH don't always struggle, but they have more fail conditions than Slayer for example. WL is a good class for small and medium scale due to high mobility and burst with aoe detaunt. ASW and WH is better in small scale. While Slayer outperforms everything in all scales.

What do you mean by Slayer outperforms WL in smallscale? Do you mean the 6v6 scen or generally in roaming? I am legitimately curious as I feel Slayers 1 AoE build really doesn't have everything under the sun as far as MDPS tools go, you would still want a WL as the other dps in the grp for burst and mobility rather than double Slayer. Surely you don't mean 2h Slayer as I've never heard anyone praise that build since Spellbreaker was nerfed.

CountTalabecland wrote: ↑Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:24 pm

Arthem wrote: ↑Sun Feb 02, 2020 2:11 pm ASW and WH don't always struggle, but they have more fail conditions than Slayer for example. WL is a good class for small and medium scale due to high mobility and burst with aoe detaunt. ASW and WH is better in small scale. While Slayer outperforms everything in all scales.

What do you mean by Slayer outperforms WL in smallscale? Do you mean the 6v6 scen or generally in roaming? I am legitimately curious as I feel Slayers 1 AoE build really doesn't have everything under the sun as far as MDPS tools go, you would still want a WL as the other dps in the grp for burst and mobility rather than double Slayer. Surely you don't mean 2h Slayer as I've never heard anyone praise that build since Spellbreaker was nerfed.

What do you mean? 2 slayer, 1 IB, 1 Knight is one of the strongest comps order has in 6v6, lol. It puts out wild amounts of pressure and can morale dump.

In solo/smallscale you can spec RoA for some sustain and barracudax people down.

Tanski wrote: ↑Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:44 pm Hard mode as in a higher skillcap or as in the class is underperforming? I don’t mind a higher ceiling of play,in fact I do enjoy the challenge, but being challenged because your class is bad is another subject .

Pretty high skill cap, mostly cause they are a lot harder to use that their counterparts. WE kisses >> WH bullets, and mSH CC potential >> aSW, not to mention that squigs are actually helpful pets with their own CCs. Destro mDPSs are relatively easy mode compared. Order classes are the same, but with lots more buttons to press and a lot more situational awareness required. Pretty similar potential though.

CountTalabecland wrote: ↑Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:24 pm

Arthem wrote: ↑Sun Feb 02, 2020 2:11 pm ASW and WH don't always struggle, but they have more fail conditions than Slayer for example. WL is a good class for small and medium scale due to high mobility and burst with aoe detaunt. ASW and WH is better in small scale. While Slayer outperforms everything in all scales.

What do you mean by Slayer outperforms WL in smallscale? Do you mean the 6v6 scen or generally in roaming? I am legitimately curious as I feel Slayers 1 AoE build really doesn't have everything under the sun as far as MDPS tools go, you would still want a WL as the other dps in the grp for burst and mobility rather than double Slayer. Surely you don't mean 2h Slayer as I've never heard anyone praise that build since Spellbreaker was nerfed.

IMO he probably means that order meles are not very good compared with destro meta meles, and that while situationaly some builds have better performances than the general play ground, in general terms only Rampage can turn that tide. Destro has mDoK, mSH and Mara viable in most scales; WE viable in small scale; and Choppa viable in WB and big defense scale. Order has Slayer viable in most scales; WH, aSW and WL viable in small scale; and mWP that is clearly unviable right now. As of meles go, Slayers are the answer to most situations simply cause order lacks the AoE potential of destro and the flexibility of 3 of their mele classes. Specially the lack of background support is bleeding. Order is down to one skill, Rampage, while destro has the arsenal of skills of Maras and mSHs to tear down any situation. Even in small scale you have to focus more first the support mele than the main mele dd, out of the pure amount of debuffs, crippling AoE blows, drains and CCs that you can get from them. The amount of tools in destro arsenal meles is ridiculous, and order has only one ace, Rampage.

Just to cry you a river

WH is ok when solo. You just know, which classes you are allowed to kill. And skip all the rest.
Nevertheless it's very easy to counter WH (since it's the surprise, which gives the advantage), thus the amount of classes you can theoretically kill often becomes the number of classes you can theoretically run from (if they know what to do when a stealth class pops).

Basically, after some time you know the nicknames you skip because they know how to counter. But definitely, it's playable for solo roaming. Takes effort to overcome and adapt, but fun as a special kind of fetish. It's even good for 12v12 sc's since you can hide behind other dps. But this is it.

In ranked or 6v6 sc's environment I almost feel the guilt when joining on WH. I love dragon gun spec (which offers some defense (RP, disrupt, ranged KD, morale pump for full parry), but due to lack of HD, it's not viable if other dps has no HD. Had numerous sc's where I have top dmg, but no kills So just for the sake of HD, specced the standard BAL+HD. The spec is better in terms of pressure on single target, but the survivability/defense diminishes all the gains. I have tried futile strikes build, full glass spec, hybrids It's just not competitive compared to other classes. You are still average. You can't compete with slayer pressure or WL burst if you invested something into defense (f.e. high futile strikes). If you are glass your damage/burst is on par, but defense is ridiculous (defense abilities are in first tree). Also, for guarded slayer/WL if the tank does his job and healers are good, he can just ignore the focus (medium armor + more flexibility to invest into defense, the dmg is still competitive). The only dangerous situation is if the tank is punted away. For WH it's not. If you are focused, you are light armor and since you wanted to be like WL/slayer damage-wise you are super soft, so you go down even if your tank is a super hero and healer loves you since you were born. What you can do: Option1: jump away but not only from ppl focusing you, but also from your tank and option2: fast re-stealth every 1 minute. The second one is good, but hey once in a minute And you are Nr.1 focus all the time.

So each time when you pop you have 5-10 sec windows before you are focused and this is the time for second dps to react to assist. Otherwise you will not kill anything. But the best part if you have a ranged dps puting dots on you or just a squig putting a pet (and not even attacking, just a pet) you can't re-stealth So you can't even stealth to get your 5-10 sec window. Your only option is to run away opposite way 150 ft or get out of LOS (in CW it's situational) and beg that a tank is following you like a puppet. Because a squig shooting or sorc/magus casting on a WH with HD up (and without guard) is not healable.

I can barely keep the 52±5% win rate. According to armory there are only 9 WH playing ranked and the highest win rate for WH is 62% (but low data pull). The second best is 58%. The average for class is 51±9%. So I guess we should ask the 58% win-rate WH for opinion.

*/ finished crying a river

Therefore I play heal WP when I get my portion of depression on WH in ranked, and WP is just fine