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wargrimnir
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Re: DPS DOK NERF

Post#131 » Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:30 pm

I'm not here to really participate in the discussion, just to give out the simple answers that seem to be lacking. Seems like a lot of tinfoil going on here about intentions all over the place, things are probably not as complicated as you're reading into it.

By itself, a tactic that reads
"Each time you crit, apply a 5s (or 10s) 50% heal debuff on your target."
is pretty damn good.

Does that need to apply on AOE to be damn good? No. It's still damn good.
Does it need to apply on DoT ticks to be damn good? No. It's still damn good.

Tell me what class would not trade an existing tactic in their tree for it? None. It's an extremely valuable tactic that is a massive boon for any class that can remotely hit a target (i.e. all of them).

Why does it exist with the ability to land on AoE's and DoT ticks?

It shouldn't. Even without that capability it's still a very powerful and enviable tactic.

Yes DPS spec'd rp/z are a strange and underwhelming bunch. It's difficult to play, and wastes to some degree their exceptional healing capability (some would call them top tier healers even). What conveniently gets ignored while pearl clutching about muh dps spec, is their ability to swap back and forth between really good (stat of choice) and pretty good (mirrored stat of choice) whether that's intelligence or willpower.

They do not have a specific heal or DPS tree. They were not designed this way, and it would take the entire unholy reckoning of rebuilding the entire set of trees to put them into these cute little heal/dps/lol buckets. Why aren't you a REAL dps spec that can compete with DPS classes? Because of that. You can't be. You're simply both. You have ALWAYS been like this, for 12 years or so.

Maybe one day, but not today. Probably not any time soon.

Leaving a tactic that is (post nerf) very powerful in an even more powerful state to prop up an underwhelming spec is not balanced, it's biased. Good enough for me and not for thee, or however the saying goes.

Wild exaggerations about how a primarily single target class has been killed, or a kind of meh dps spec has been killed, due to a very strong tactic being made slightly less strong, is really what gets me wound up. So hey, if it kills the class, so be it. Start retiring boys, you can turn in your books, blades, and skulls at my desk. Maybe some will stay and adapt and give some feedback grounded in reality.
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Panodil
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Re: DPS DOK NERF

Post#132 » Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:43 pm

Back to healingspec only in Warband :(
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wonshot
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Re: DPS DOK NERF

Post#133 » Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:49 pm

Tunnelvission on the tactic alone instead of looking at the big picture.
Fitting for the tactic change I guess, From AoE applied to Singletarget only. :D

Joking aside, fairly reasonable explanation. Sure the tactic is strong, and every premade guildwarband on both realms run one version of it for a reason. But is that really a bad thing?
Is Pierce Defence next due to the sheer debuffing value it brings, and where does this end?

Oh well this sounds like it is set in stone, your house your rules. Thanks for taking the time to chip in though!
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Aurandilaz
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Re: DPS DOK NERF

Post#134 » Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:49 pm

I mean, our warband guild has for past 3 years (as soon as we were able to spare a zealot into a dps role) - been running a fully dps specced zealot to carry out the task of running AoE healdebuff, aoe corp debuff, aoe armor debuff, and AoE Winds of Insanity knockback in warbands. As well as the moderate magical dmg the class can do, keeping surprisingly well up with sorcs at times.
Several other Destruction guild warbands, at least the good ones who try to minmax their setups, also are running zealot dps spec often in their roster. As was on live, you brought a dps specced zealot to a destro warband to bring the variety of tools it has in its arsenal.

If you now insist on nerfing both dps rp and dps zealot because of DoK hdbuff overperforming in 6v6 fighting (no serious warband guild runs a dps DoK in their bombing roster), okay I guess?
dpsRp was less efficient in its spreading of AoE debuffs than Zealot, and also less in demand due to most warband dmg coming from BWs which is magical, therefore little need for the armor debuff. Zealot was always in high demand, simply because Mara+Choppa benefiting from the armor debuff, and Sorc+Magus benefiting from the corp debuffing. (around 25-40% of Sorcs aoe dmg output is corp).

I mean it is your game, you can obviously decide and go nuke this or that spec at your free will, we will adapt and run next best meta available.

However as mentioned before, the ability of Destro to run AoE healdebuffs in organized warband setting is a more or less direct counter to Order being able to stack massive healpower modifiers on their side, +20 on WP self heals, +25 on RP target, +15 on party from kotb, AM +25 on buffed target, +20 SM on self (so in theory you have +105% incoming heal modifier on a tanky SM holding a funnel while proccing 3-5 absorb shield layers).

Zealot without their hdbuff would probably go the same category as dps RP, meaning "not worth picking".
It just feels bit weird to see some spec nuked to this extent after all these years of WAR and RoR. (especially since it seems you just discovered zealot/RP have healdebuff, after the DoK healdebuff was the latest hot topic in nerfnews)

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Wam
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Re: DPS DOK NERF

Post#135 » Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:10 am

i dont know why you guys have such a problem with hybrid classes so much and also your problem with organised people who are giving you their experiences through hours of play testing you tar everyone with same brush and ignore any constructive feedback what so ever (when there are alot of different personalities from organised background, all ages,genders, nationalities and attitudes you think we are all raging e-peen little kids (when that is very far from the truth)... on both sides you are getting similar feedback which really should speak volumes that its not as broken as you think otherwise they would be top killers in zones and everyone run them.

zdps and rpdps are both nice classes, but they are utility classes... you are nerfing them and removing their utility because you have a problem with another class overperforming in a different enviroment.

Zdps and rpdps do not overperform in large scale, they are a niche utility class which gives both sides options... you now remove these options because the nerf will kill the class and so they are stuck in only healer mode (which is probably what you want to achieve because there can be no other logical explanation for picking on this class out of all the classes for being OP)

BW is the most OP class in the game, but it doesn't get touched because it will destroy realm balance, order need it to be strong ... i understand and get this, why not improve classes that are crap instead of destroy classes that are niche to give players more options? and dps dok in large scale is not a issue either as that was second fiddle to zdps... zdps sucks in small scale, better in large, dps dok alot better in small, not as good in large that was their trade off...

You are pigeon holing people into the few strong classes and spec's... and what then when you all of a sudden out of the blue decide this stacking of few remaining viable classes is too OP and you nerf it for no reason... you will alienate more of your player base again ... I would of hoped by now you would of learnt from mistakes of the past instead of digging trenches and putting up walls.

You get alot of good constructive feedback in this thread, but it simply gets ignored because it differs to your opinion which is a shame you are not more open minded to feedback of difference of opinion. How much complaining do you see about zdps/dps dok/and rp dps? there was alot of complaining about WL for years and it took along time to get "fixed" and it's still strong in small scale.

Variety is the spice of life, order in particular definately need more viable dps options for wb play and you just take away another. If it was broken in a overpowered sense I would understand, but zdps/rps have alot of worthless abilities that really do need fixing not nerfing.

but what do i know, i am just a shitter warband elitest player apparently ... instead of someone whose equally as passionate and trying to be helpful.
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wargrimnir
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Re: DPS DOK NERF

Post#136 » Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:24 am

Feedback is read and will come into consideration when we review the changes after they're even implemented. Even when said feedback is a bit more salt than substance, it's not ignored outright.

I certainly hope my comments in the thread don't leave people feeling totally ignored. This simply isn't the place you're going to get a lot of debate from staff over implementations. We do that internally where we can talk to each other and simply check over-exaggerations respectfully between each other.
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Detangler
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Re: DPS DOK NERF

Post#137 » Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:22 am

Fell sacrifice change - I get it. It deserves the change

Essence lash - I can see the reason for the change. In certain situations it can be powerful in small scale. I dont think it's a game breaking change, and melee doks will soldier on just fine.

Zealot/RP aoe HD change - seems like a bad idea. The damage they bring is nothing compared to real damage classes. Yes they can toggle off the stat changer, but Divine Fury tactic will still be active and limiting healing. They would also be stuck to healing for the next 20 seconds due to the class mechanic cooldown, so it's not quite as easy to toggle damage/healing on and off.
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retekelek
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Re: DPS DOK NERF

Post#138 » Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:32 am

Spoiler:
wargrimnir wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:30 pm
I'm not here to really participate in the discussion, just to give out the simple answers that seem to be lacking. Seems like a lot of tinfoil going on here about intentions all over the place, things are probably not as complicated as you're reading into it.

By itself, a tactic that reads
"Each time you crit, apply a 5s (or 10s) 50% heal debuff on your target."
is pretty damn good.

Does that need to apply on AOE to be damn good? No. It's still damn good.
Does it need to apply on DoT ticks to be damn good? No. It's still damn good.

Tell me what class would not trade an existing tactic in their tree for it? None. It's an extremely valuable tactic that is a massive boon for any class that can remotely hit a target (i.e. all of them).

Why does it exist with the ability to land on AoE's and DoT ticks?

It shouldn't. Even without that capability it's still a very powerful and enviable tactic.

Yes DPS spec'd rp/z are a strange and underwhelming bunch. It's difficult to play, and wastes to some degree their exceptional healing capability (some would call them top tier healers even). What conveniently gets ignored while pearl clutching about muh dps spec, is their ability to swap back and forth between really good (stat of choice) and pretty good (mirrored stat of choice) whether that's intelligence or willpower.

They do not have a specific heal or DPS tree. They were not designed this way, and it would take the entire unholy reckoning of rebuilding the entire set of trees to put them into these cute little heal/dps/lol buckets. Why aren't you a REAL dps spec that can compete with DPS classes? Because of that. You can't be. You're simply both. You have ALWAYS been like this, for 12 years or so.

Maybe one day, but not today. Probably not any time soon.

Leaving a tactic that is (post nerf) very powerful in an even more powerful state to prop up an underwhelming spec is not balanced, it's biased. Good enough for me and not for thee, or however the saying goes.

Wild exaggerations about how a primarily single target class has been killed, or a kind of meh dps spec has been killed, due to a very strong tactic being made slightly less strong, is really what gets me wound up. So hey, if it kills the class, so be it. Start retiring boys, you can turn in your books, blades, and skulls at my desk. Maybe some will stay and adapt and give some feedback grounded in reality.
Zealot is my main char, i have years of playing experince behind it, mainly in smallcale, but i had also played in pre-wb-s quite a lot of time.

The tactic itself can look like its "pretty dam good" but if it would be that OP people would wine about it long time ago, think u missing the bigger picture (ex: pounce is sooo OP! u can get back into the enemy backline whit it like a teleport ability, shoundt it be removed? - bigger picture - try that whitout a tank near and ur healers way behind.)

DoT tic apply was removed long time ago, its only apply whit dircet damage abilites.

Other classes brigs other stuffs in the table, pure dps-es do lot more damage and / or other debuffs. A sorc/BW whit this tactic, well yeah that would make some reason for nerf.

Remotely hitting whit aoe healdeuff triggering ability is only chaotic agitation which is 80 ft channelable spell that can be interrupted by taunt most effectivly from range(or silince), and your other 2 aoe healdebuff appling abilites which is winds of insanty and rite of agony is extremly close range. u have to go in the meatgrinder in wb scale and smallscale also, good luck whit that as a sqishy class when a high geared wl can burst u under KD solo if ur tank got punted.

Healing whit divine furry and no other heal tatic not going to make u top tier healer even whit their core abiltiy thats convert stats, thats simply not true.

In smallcale u not going to heal whit it since theres a 20 sec cd on HoD to swich back from healer stats to dps, will make u miss the windows of opportunitys when its opens to turn back offensive from a kiting situation, and even if thats happening ur role as a dps is to put pressure on enemy team. nitynine percent of stiutation when u got so much pressure that u try to swich to help ur healers, usualyl thats already a lost situation.

For wb probably it has more reason to swich healing occasionly, still in most situation u will doing ur job, which is healdebuff and damage.
Yeah you CAN do some not bad healing, but u should not, its already lost case when u trying to do that, thats not your job, its ur healers job, u have other thing to make it happen.

If the tatic was so powerfull and the class wound be so unballancedly strong, than every warbands would have run 1 zealot/ runi. And well, suprisingly, its not the case! What a strange hap.
I remember when i was in a guild wb and we did freindly duel against an order guild wb, they won all the attemps, whit 4 bw 4 slayer setup. They were probably only won against this overpowered meta becasue they were using cheat engine.

And sry if i took a lot of time for reading tru ofr anyone, but just about the single target capabelity i started already a feedback about dps zealots before i got hooked to this topic.
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wonshot
Posts: 886

Re: DPS DOK NERF

Post#139 » Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:19 am

But this is not just a small change, it's a drastic build-defining tactic getting basicly removed. This is a twoman partner job. Some guilds even have this pair of players in seperate voicecomms to better concentrate on supplying the perfect uptime, this is not just a solo-delivery system as the DOK version.

To better paint the picture for those who dont know warband play. A DPS zealot/runie in slotted into a utility group with the absolute requirement of having a BO/SM partner. The zealot will take a DPS slot in a 2-2-2 party format, and will have two pure healers close to 100% of the time will he stay in "glowyhands" stat-conversion just like his 3 other tactics will be directed at his task and warband role of debuffing stats and incoming healing, mainly from 30feet range. His natural abilities are gated behind 5sec cooldowns hence the absolute need of a cooldownreduction partner.

Simply removing this keyrole for warband play, when it has never before been adressed, or even noticed, as an issue. It already has a high demand of setup to even function, and requires a build with high INT for strikethrough to land attacks with his limmited uptime + high critchance and close to pure classcanon in a melee range playstyle.

This role and build has persisted for years now, and suddenly seen it ripped apart as a result of yet an other 6v6 balancechange is about as drastic as if all Warriorpriests had their books removed because they are designed as a frontline healer. :lol:

Suggestions have been made in this topic about other ways to tone this down if the Dev team think its still too powerful with aoe DD applying the 50%.
- 3-5sec duration on aoe DD procs (no dots)
- No ranged ways of applying it (rune of battle etc not able to proc it) (Zealot can apply it from range with pulsing damage from their placed rituals but it requires two tactics)
- Internal cooldown so tactic can only proc every 3 or 5 sec
- Make the Healdebuff 35%value if 50% is too high for AOE DD.

This is a niche high risk/high reward build requiring perfect partysetup, classcanon itemization with very limmited timewindows for uptime and doing very mediocre damage
The goal was to hit DOK for doing this on autopilot while murdering people.
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Bozzax
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Re: DPS DOK NERF

Post#140 » Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:03 am

Again procs of dots belong on bugtracker and was op (made hdebuff more or less unclns)

Proc on st / aoe dd should be reverted.

Ps. If you still think mdok over perform maybe look at finetuning the buffs you made instead. Atm you are fixing your own mess and breaking other classes and other roles that the class did play.
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