lose the last zone to win 4 tokens

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anarchypark
Posts: 1283

Re: lose the last zone to win 4 tokens

Post#31 » Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:20 am

Xavarion wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:05 am
The way I see it, to the victor goes the spoils. Invader tokens for fort defense should only be rewarded for winning. In that regard the reward should be the same as an offensive victory, 6. Conversely, the loser should be rewarded nothing. So 6 invader tokens up for grabs, winner takes all.

why defend fort ?

am I running hamster wheel?
SM8, SW7, AM7, WL4, KoBS4, WP7, WH4, SL3
BG7, Sorc6, DoK7, WE5, Ch6, Magi7, Mara6, Ze6, BO3, SH4, Shm5
SC summary - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=20415
( last update : 2018.10.26)

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WExWH
Posts: 88

Re: lose the last zone to win 4 tokens

Post#32 » Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:20 am

anarchypark wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:38 pm
WExWH wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:02 pm

Which losing player expects to have a reward?

failing to kill a boss on pve doesn't give a reward.
losing a fight gives no reward.

that's already discussed for 2 pages.
ppl changing side to winner.
plz don't start realm lock. 2 accounts.
probably because most of the changes benefit this type of players,
no more interest of the aao, the gain rr is so high that just take keep empty and lock the map is enough to leveling quickly.
Same goes for the reward, doing nothing will give you a bag. zerg>profit

Ashoris
Posts: 135

Re: lose the last zone to win 4 tokens

Post#33 » Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:30 am

Marawo wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:58 pm
Yaliskah wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:54 pm

Now, i guess both faction would see some "let them take praag!" announcement :). See my point ? It wouldn't solve the issue, just moving it in another place.

The real question is : " What could motivate a losing faction/player to go beyond ? "
At first glance this statement is correct, but I disagree on this part if I consider how campaign dynamic works.
Changing the dynamic from Midzone is easier because each side has the same amount of keeps to push to get to the zones that reward invader tokens. (and 1or2 failed sieges are enough to turn around the dynamic)
Pushing from your defensive endzone into the enemy fort is 3x more zones than the attacking side (1 zone) has to do, so people fall in the mindset "if we push the defensive endzone, we need to push midzone AND the enemies endzone to get fort" which is very unattractive from a reward perspective.

Syphoning rewards out of the fort into the zones is the best way to make the campaign more complete and playtime investment friendly. Fort should still be the "jackpot" but playing the T4 campaign is a strongly connected part of the actual fort.

Image
The overall medal payout for the individual who enters fort is the same (if they were part of the previous campaign, intended)
The overall medalpayout for peole who play campaign but can't enter fort is increased because of spreading the rewards wider.

The only actual increase is in pushing back an endzone because of a few reasons:
a) you are at a dynamic disadvantage because you got pushed out of the middle zone in the first place which usually means the enemy outnumbers you and you need to grind their numbers down until you are capable of pushing back
b) 1 medal is not enough to be social and defend the keep because 100 fort defenders get 400 medals for the realm which means youd need 400 endzone defenders to have the same realm payout.

I think the biggest mistake that was made with invadermedal design is that is a too strong currency.
Rewarding medals for kills or across the whole campaign makes the farm too easy.
This could be solved by introducing a subcurrency "invadermedal fragment" which drops from high rr players.
This subcurrency would make it easier to rebalance rewards over the whole campaign as well.


p.s: Only rewarding attacker promotes realmzerging. Imo it is way better to reward pushing against the current campaigndynamic.
Yaliskah can we get a comment from staff to this idea ?
I like the idea of real incentive for pushing against the current dynamic.
I dont get why this idea has not more approval of the rest here.
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anarchypark
Posts: 1283

Re: lose the last zone to win 4 tokens

Post#34 » Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:27 am

WExWH wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:20 am
anarchypark wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:38 pm
WExWH wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:02 pm

Which losing player expects to have a reward?

failing to kill a boss on pve doesn't give a reward.
losing a fight gives no reward.

that's already discussed for 2 pages.
ppl changing side to winner.
plz don't start realm lock. 2 accounts.
probably because most of the changes benefit this type of players,
no more interest of the aao, the gain rr is so high that just take keep empty and lock the map is enough to leveling quickly.
Same goes for the reward, doing nothing will give you a bag. zerg>profit

on the contrary
most of my destro toons are lvled up from aao.
Don't underestimate aao hunt.

my dps dok was so fast it took only 1 month to get 70 from 40.
one time i got 1 lvl up around 60 from 2-3 repeated zone lost with 80~100 aao.

and i'm solo pug player.
imagine what dedicated grp can do.
sometimes they turn over aao.
price was a lot of death.
thx to malus it doesn't hurt much.

probably zergs get benefit but underdogs get it too, if they play well.
here's tip for aao farm : objective play :lol: 1 of BO have smallest zerg.
SM8, SW7, AM7, WL4, KoBS4, WP7, WH4, SL3
BG7, Sorc6, DoK7, WE5, Ch6, Magi7, Mara6, Ze6, BO3, SH4, Shm5
SC summary - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=20415
( last update : 2018.10.26)

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bichka
Posts: 397

Re: lose the last zone to win 4 tokens

Post#35 » Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:08 pm

aao hunt is always fun for gankers or 6mans. Lot of opposite side players running like headless chiken into keep/fort.

how much did you have from taking zone as a winning side?
1 kill with aao + 2x event:
Image

so usually i am YRealmer, i logging into toon where aao present. If no sc pops..
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Shinku / Suiseiseki / Kirakishou

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Mercenary
Legacy RR80
Posts: 26

Re: lose the last zone to win 4 tokens

Post#36 » Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:34 pm

After this guy got his own full invader set (with 4 Meds for a loose) he is complaining about getting 4 meds for a loose. Thats a nice attitude!!!

Dont make the grind harder as it is.

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Aethilmar
Posts: 154

Re: lose the last zone to win 4 tokens

Post#37 » Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:40 pm

The vertical power progression in this game is a trap disguised as variety. It forces people to go after specific currencies to be "the best". You have to chase these currencies to stay relevant for whatever game mode you you actually like playing.

Placing specific currencies in specific content is an even more insidious trap disguised as more variety. Now you have to play very specific content (regardless of enjoyment) to stay relevant in whatever game mode you actually enjoy playing.

Probably too late to remove the vertical progression. It was baked into original game and is baked into this one.

Not too late to remove the specific rewards for specific content. Reward people for participating in the various fights (RvR or SC) and you will quickly find out which game modes and which maps are considered the most enjoyable.

If people like Forts, they will fight in Forts. If people like Cities, they will fight in Cities. And, if they don't, then the team should reconsider their designs.

anarchypark
Posts: 1283

Re: lose the last zone to win 4 tokens

Post#38 » Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:12 am

Aethilmar wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:40 pm
The vertical power progression in this game is a trap disguised as variety. It forces people to go after specific currencies to be "the best". You have to chase these currencies to stay relevant for whatever game mode you you actually like playing.

Placing specific currencies in specific content is an even more insidious trap disguised as more variety. Now you have to play very specific content (regardless of enjoyment) to stay relevant in whatever game mode you actually enjoy playing.

Probably too late to remove the vertical progression. It was baked into original game and is baked into this one.

Not too late to remove the specific rewards for specific content. Reward people for participating in the various fights (RvR or SC) and you will quickly find out which game modes and which maps are considered the most enjoyable.

If people like Forts, they will fight in Forts. If people like Cities, they will fight in Cities. And, if they don't, then the team should reconsider their designs.

gimme an example of rpg that don't do vertical progression.
and tell me why you don't play that game.
what kind of mmo have seperated their player base into small mini games ?
specially when mass realm war was main seller.

your PoV seems you want bis gear farm by your favorite way.
so everyone get the way. rvr/sc/pve or whatever.
ppl find easiest farm, why would anyone pick hard way,
see the problem?
SM8, SW7, AM7, WL4, KoBS4, WP7, WH4, SL3
BG7, Sorc6, DoK7, WE5, Ch6, Magi7, Mara6, Ze6, BO3, SH4, Shm5
SC summary - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=20415
( last update : 2018.10.26)

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Cornerback
Posts: 147

Re: lose the last zone to win 4 tokens

Post#39 » Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:28 pm

I've got some vague idea in my mind that I wanted to share:

Hand out fort rewards based on the acumulated contribution of the previous zones.

General idea:
If you pushed to the enemies end zone but then lose, there is currently no reason for you to not just log to the other side and zerg through all zones to the other fort.
So make staying on the losing side worth the time. Something like:

If you fight in all 3 zones but lose, defending and losing the fort will give you less invader meds than winning all three zones + fort, but maybe a higher chance for a gold bag based on your acumulated contribution from losing all three zones.

If you fight in all 3 zones but lose, defending and losing the fort will give you more invader meds than winning just one end zone + a fort. (you participated in more fights, even though you lost. Why would someone who just fought in one zone get a higher reward, right?)

If you fight in all 3 zones but lose, defending and losing the fort will give you the same amount of invader meds than winning a mid zone + one end zone + a fort.

If you fight in mid and lose the mid and end zone, you will get the same amount of meds in fort like someone who won mid + end + fort, but more than someone who just won end + fort.

If you only fight and lose in end + fort, you will get the same as someone who won last + fort, but less than someone who won mid + last + fort.

Fighting back from your own end zone and winning all three zones + fort will of course give you the highest reward.

Details need to be discussed extensively of couse, but the idea is to give people no reason to log to the other side, as defending and losing will be only slightly less, equal or even slightly better than logging to the other side, depending on which zone you started to defend.

In general, this will probably result in more rewards for the defenders, which again isn't too bad because the losing side isn't getting out-geared. Getting beaten up all the time is depressing enough, being heavily outgeared on top is just annoying as hell. After all, we're here to fight an kill each other, not to create imbalance and overwhelm one realm, right?

Update:
For defending the end zone, the reward could be increased to 2 meds, but the 2nd med will only be given out to the defendes of the end zone if they also cap the mid zone afterwards, to stop the current loss of momentum after successfully defending an end zone.

Update 2:
My idea could actually be implemented as a point-based system. You can get up to 3 points for your last three zone wins/losses + another one for the fort.
A losing point will give you one med after fort, a winning point will give you 2 meds. A fort loss will give you 2 meds, a fort win will give you 3.

Examples:
You win all three zones + fort. You get 3 win points + a fort win, resulting in 9 meds.

You win mid (+1 win point), then lose end (+1 lose point), then win mid (+1 win point) and end again (+1 win point, the one win point from first mid win is lost now as you can only get 3 points). Now you got 5 meds safe + another 2/3 depending on fort win/lose.

You fight to enemy end zone, then lose all the zones. You get 3 lose points resulting in 3 safe meds + another 2/3 depending on the fort outcome.

This way, you get equal or more than for example someone who only wins end zone (+1 win point) and then fort, which would be 5 meds in total, but less than someone who wins multiple zones + fort or the equal amount of someone who won 2 zones but then lost fort.

Also, this would make logging to the other realm more risky, as the last 3 zones have an impact on your rewards.
Example: You win mid, then lose end. If you now log to the other realm and win mid + end, you get 2 win points going into the fort. But if you stay with your realm, manage to re-take mid + end again, you get 2 win points + a lose point going to fort, giving you 1 more med.

Also, switching realms just for fort would become quite unattractive, as you would lose your acumulated win/lose points and therefore get less rewards.
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Aethilmar
Posts: 154

Re: lose the last zone to win 4 tokens

Post#40 » Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:25 pm

anarchypark wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:12 am
Aethilmar wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:40 pm
The vertical power progression in this game is a trap disguised as variety. It forces people to go after specific currencies to be "the best". You have to chase these currencies to stay relevant for whatever game mode you you actually like playing.

Placing specific currencies in specific content is an even more insidious trap disguised as more variety. Now you have to play very specific content (regardless of enjoyment) to stay relevant in whatever game mode you actually enjoy playing.

Probably too late to remove the vertical progression. It was baked into original game and is baked into this one.

Not too late to remove the specific rewards for specific content. Reward people for participating in the various fights (RvR or SC) and you will quickly find out which game modes and which maps are considered the most enjoyable.

If people like Forts, they will fight in Forts. If people like Cities, they will fight in Cities. And, if they don't, then the team should reconsider their designs.

gimme an example of rpg that don't do vertical progression.
and tell me why you don't play that game.
what kind of mmo have seperated their player base into small mini games ?
specially when mass realm war was main seller.

your PoV seems you want bis gear farm by your favorite way.
so everyone get the way. rvr/sc/pve or whatever.
ppl find easiest farm, why would anyone pick hard way,
see the problem?
Guild Wars 2 is (mostly) flat. The difference between top tier gear and the "standard" WvW gear is like 5% and mostly focuses around build variety.

Also, yes, I see the problem. That is why I called it a trap.

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