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How to improve the chance of winning PuG SCs

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Ashoris
Posts: 143

How to improve the chance of winning PuG SCs

Post#1 » Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:17 pm

How to enhance your chance of winning SCs

Hi,
There are some easy ways to enhance winning chance in PuG SC dramatically.
You don't need to follow them, but they will will enhance the chance of winning, but even the easiest are often unused.

1) on Scenario Start: check your group compilation, and the other group compilation, can you make a difference just by switching group ?
TANK: am I in a group with a melee dps ? if not has the other grp a melee dps and enough tanks ?
HEAL: Am I in a Group with too much Healers (unlikely :) ) has the other group the better dps/tank combination?
DPS: Am I grouped with tank and healer ? if not can switching grps give me or another dps Heal and guard ?

This is one pretty easy point and should be possible regardless of what you actually like to play.


2) improve the Group play by putting your EGO aside
often you have a scenario with 12 random ppl all thinking of himself as the leader :) while this is true for all of us sometimes, it can help to just follow sometimes - often an assist on a bad target is better than no assist.

TANK: is there a dps i can follow and assist ?
DPS : is heal and guard in my grp? if yes I should stay in range of them! no assist means I haven't assisted someone
HEAL: I can't do **** solo, but without me they are all doomed, i pick the best dps/tank combo and support them.


3) now the more difficult part, can I fill a need in the Group by playing differently ... I know, this part is not for everyone :)
(most of the time this means playing the role the Archetype is meant for even if I have another specc)

TANK: is there overwhelming dps on enemy side so a turtle tank or HTL is needed ?(switching to shield)
DPS: do I die often ( switch gear/tactics, stay closer to your group, pick other targets than you prefer)
HEAL: is there a dramatic lack of heal and I am play dps ? (switching to a book or to heal tactics)
Last edited by Ashoris on Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:14 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: How to improve the chance of winning PuG SCs

Post#2 » Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:22 pm

Great advice!
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TenTonHammer
Posts: 3769

Re: How to improve the chance of winning PuG SCs

Post#3 » Fri Aug 30, 2019 4:04 pm

The first step to winning a pug sc is to have a pug sc pop :^P

Seriously though scs take so long to pop that you basically have to que for all of them and just take what you can get

None the less, great advice from the op
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Gangan
Posts: 550

Re: How to improve the chance of winning PuG SCs

Post#4 » Fri Aug 30, 2019 4:23 pm

Great advice, to bad most "pugs" won't ever see this 😅
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eisenhans
Suspended
Posts: 64

Re: How to improve the chance of winning PuG SCs

Post#5 » Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:30 pm

From what I have seen in the last few days, even more basic advice, starting from absolute zero, would be appreciated. Especially on Order side, people actually runa way from engagements in sc's, which is... puzzling, to say the least. Assisting is non-existant. Target selection also non-existant. Most don't have clues about objectives and zerg, or in their case, mostly feed the other side.

All of this gets slightly better in later tiers, but not much.

So we need a guide on
- How to basically select targets
- How to basically assist (forming a real melee train is still something much too high level for the majority on Order side even in late tiers)
- Why it's better to play to win than to feed the enemy

etc.

Zxul
Posts: 918

Re: How to improve the chance of winning PuG SCs

Post#6 » Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:50 pm

From personal experience, the best way to win pug and non pug scs:

1. Quote only for scs with with solo workable objectives, no "hold the fire stone as long as you can" ets.
2. If pug- let most of them fight in the middle, while you running objectives. Works best if you are a healer- just ignore the /sc screams/tells, and let them die in the middle without healing, keeping the other side occupied (after all, they are getting kills, they must be doing something useful!!1) while you are completing the objectives winning the sc.
3. If in sc with a premade- they will hunt as a team (since they don't have the build and quite likely the skills to fight solo), resulting in 6 from the other side only being able to be in 1 spot in same time. Again, run objectives, using the rest of pug as a cannon fodder, while avoiding the premade. With say 3 out of pug on your side doing that, it is quite possible to win even vs a good premade- I personally remember winning as a pug in a Reikland factory vs Csi's premade, cause 3 of us were doing exactly that, while the rest from our side were providing the free kills to keep the premade occupied.

Consider the tells (and especially screams "why don't you heal!!!!") as an extra bonus. Back in a day, when I farmed Dom for my dok in 3 days, I remember so many Destro tears haha.
"Can we play with him, master? He seems so unhappy. Let us help him smile. Please? Or at least let us carve one on his face when he stops screaming."

— Azeila, Alluress of Slaanesh

Ashoris
Posts: 143

Re: How to improve the chance of winning PuG SCs

Post#7 » Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:03 pm

Zxul wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:50 pm
From personal experience, the best way to win pug and non pug scs:

1. Quote only for scs with with solo workable objectives, no "hold the fire stone as long as you can" ets.
2. If pug- let most of them fight in the middle, while you running objectives. Works best if you are a healer- just ignore the /sc screams/tells, and let them die in the middle without healing, keeping the other side occupied (after all, they are getting kills, they must be doing something useful!!1) while you are completing the objectives winning the sc.
3. If in sc with a premade- they will hunt as a team (since they don't have the build and quite likely the skills to fight solo), resulting in 6 from the other side only being able to be in 1 spot in same time. Again, run objectives, using the rest of pug as a cannon fodder, while avoiding the premade. With say 3 out of pug on your side doing that, it is quite possible to win even vs a good premade- I personally remember winning as a pug in a Reikland factory vs Csi's premade, cause 3 of us were doing exactly that, while the rest from our side were providing the free kills to keep the premade occupied.

Consider the tells (and especially screams "why don't you heal!!!!") as an extra bonus. Back in a day, when I farmed Dom for my dok in 3 days, I remember so many Destro tears haha.
i found one of the champion Trolls we all missing in Black Crag
Warhammer Return of Reckoning
Verey / Ashoris / Devoras

WaR -dead-
Erengrad - Order - Frostbringer - Devoras

Ashoris
Posts: 143

Re: How to improve the chance of winning PuG SCs

Post#8 » Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:24 pm

eisenhans wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:30 pm
From what I have seen in the last few days, even more basic advice, starting from absolute zero, would be appreciated. Especially on Order side, people actually runa way from engagements in sc's, which is... puzzling, to say the least. Assisting is non-existant. Target selection also non-existant. Most don't have clues about objectives and zerg, or in their case, mostly feed the other side.

All of this gets slightly better in later tiers, but not much.

So we need a guide on
- How to basically select targets
- How to basically assist (forming a real melee train is still something much too high level for the majority on Order side even in late tiers)
- Why it's better to play to win than to feed the enemy

etc.
The problem is, picking Targets is not easy - in Warhammer especially there is no rule like caster/healers first. .. everything can be easy killable or damn hard, depending on the support, specc and equip of any given class.

i often try to explain to some dps that they dont have to overextend to kill healers first ... but even the pure logic by saying: "look you always die before your healers are dead, its clearly a viable strategy because you just got beaten by it", does not let them understand that this is a valid argument (easy targets with less defensive equip and weaker defensive skills and if you can kill them you remove pressure from your grp too)
Warhammer Return of Reckoning
Verey / Ashoris / Devoras

WaR -dead-
Erengrad - Order - Frostbringer - Devoras

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eisenhans
Suspended
Posts: 64

Re: How to improve the chance of winning PuG SCs

Post#9 » Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:53 pm

Ashoris wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:24 pm
The problem is, picking Targets is not easy - in Warhammer especially there is no rule like caster/healers first. .. everything can be easy killable or damn hard, depending on the support, specc and equip of any given class.

i often try to explain to some dps that they dont have to overextend to kill healers first ... but even the pure logic by saying: "look you always die before your healers are dead, its clearly a viable strategy because you just got beaten by it", does not let them understand that this is a valid argument (easy targets with less defensive equip and weaker defensive skills and if you can kill them you remove pressure from your grp too)
I think this is just cope. I have NEVER experienced anything remotely similar to this since the first days of live. Clothies just don't survive a concentrated attack, while the front line does quite well unless they are not massively outgeared, but in that case, any strategy will work because you just roll over them.

The usual situation, let's be honest here, is 80% of the pug beating on the big tanks without any effect, with maybe 2-3 dps going after healers - and that's already a best case scenario usually. Now, of course, 3 dps vs 4 healers will not go well for the dps unless they are focus firing. And they usually aren't. As soon as the healers break, the tanks break. When the tanks break, the dps breaks. There may be some situations where going after the healers is not a good idea, but those are comparatively rare. They don#t even have to be killed, keeping them from healing the front line is in many cases enough.

Ashoris
Posts: 143

Re: How to improve the chance of winning PuG SCs

Post#10 » Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:01 pm

eisenhans wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:53 pm
The usual situation, let's be honest here, is 80% of the pug beating on the big tanks without any effect, with maybe 2-3 dps going after healers - and that's already a best case scenario usually. Now, of course, 3 dps vs 4 healers will not go well for the dps unless they are focus firing. And they usually aren't. As soon as the healers break, the tanks break. When the tanks break, the dps breaks. There may be some situations where going after the healers is not a good idea, but those are comparatively rare. They don#t even have to be killed, keeping them from healing the front line is in many cases enough.
and here we are.... i will not discuss that in detail because i really feel like don quichotte :)

Instead i can suggest 2 things:

1) you check what the good order or destru grps are doing and what they kill first in different circumstances (6vs6, 12 vs 12 - PuG vs Premade)

2) you give me a tell ingame or a PM and we will play together and check together in a group: 1 hour you are picking the healers, the 2nd hour you let me pick the targets and we check what let to more success :)
Warhammer Return of Reckoning
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WaR -dead-
Erengrad - Order - Frostbringer - Devoras

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