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How scenario works - Feedback

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Eathisword
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Re: How scenario works - Feedback

Post#11 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:03 pm

wargrimnir wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:18 pm
Spoiler:
Eathisword wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:10 pm
wargrimnir wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:06 pm
I wasn't quite sure we had enough concurrent threads related to scenarios running. Maybe everyone will repeat their concerns here as well for good measure.
In my line of work the saying goes : if you repeat it enough, one day, they'll understand :P
Alas, the difference between understanding and coming to the same conclusion may be tricky if we have different objectives and goals.

We're not looking to destroy PvP as many have made a meme about it. Very mature those memes, easy to dismiss and such. The goal is to mitigate spawn camping and one sided stomps. Feedback that can help us reach that goal is more than welcome. Feedback that you are very sad about uncontested killfarming being discouraged is pretty much what we expected.

If you have suggestions for additional checks to prevent abuse of the mechanic, that would be fine. We're updating it as we find more creative ways to circumvent it.
You have a 2 fold problem you say : mitigate spawn camping, prevent stomps. Imo, one is fair game, the other goal is where you are dropping the ball.

The first one is an easy solve. Also, it could be used to revamp and spawn works in scens in general too. But simple mimick RvR. How do players avoid getting camped in RvR ? There is alternative route in PvE, there are portals that teleports you to flag. Just put some in scens. Alternatively, you could put 3 random spawn in each map and when people die they just rez in one of those. Alternatively again, you could give the same buff (close to WC super OP stuff of RvR) in scenarios. Give it like a 20s buff when you leave spawn where you do 100% more damage and take 25% inc damage. Spawn camp will stop.

Then for one way stomps. Do you stop one way stomp in RvR ? Do you stop one way stomp in 6v6 ? Do you stop one way stomp in 1v1 ? Do you stop one way stomp in fort ? Its a game... one way stomp are bound to happen when one team massively outskill/gear/level/number the other one.

But anyway, there are ways...
You could make 2 queue like now : solo or full group. I know people won't like that, but it'll somewhat work. Groups couldn't dodge the 6v6 scen anymore. You queue with a group, you fight other groups. Or you solo queue. LEtting 2-5 man group queue is part of the problem, imo. PuG v Premade. Now most premade say they hate fighting pug and I believe them. Hence they should not object to fight other pre. And people that don'T want to pre, should just queue solo or not at all. And you remove the instance of a good 4-5 man obliterating 12 pugs.

Another one would be to let groups from WB queue. Would greatly increase the number of people in scenario.

Another one would be to, as proposed in my opening, have deathmatch scenario where it is know in advance that the goal is only killing.

And so on. Trying to force the players behavior about how a fight should go (i.e. boyz ! stop killing em, its gonna trigger domi, we need to go cap) is bound to fail. Control the parameters before the fight (who, what class, how many, etc) but once the killing starts, it should not be a part of the game design to stop it at an arbitrary number of kills, because flags matter...
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Bozzax
Posts: 2045

Re: How scenario works - Feedback

Post#12 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:10 pm

Premades dont want queue separation.

Odd tho queue was changed to give priority to full group and giving them a way to end scs quickly with full rewards.
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

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abodam
Posts: 122

Re: How scenario works - Feedback

Post#13 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:17 pm

How do you stop people getting farmed? Maybe they could form premades on their own and play better? Stop playing non-viable playstyles which offers nothing in real fights? Better gear selection instead higher = better? Mixing sets?
No, its the tryhards who are wrong and should take it easier on these poor pugs who have families and jobs.
Magus / BG

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Bozzax
Posts: 2045

Re: How scenario works - Feedback

Post#14 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:24 pm

You shouldnt but giving same full group prio and a slot in every sc untill all soloers, newcomers and newbies tire is plain stupid.
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

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wargrimnir
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Re: How scenario works - Feedback

Post#15 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:29 pm

abodam wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:17 pm
How do you stop people getting farmed? Maybe they could form premades on their own and play better? Stop playing non-viable playstyles which offers nothing in real fights? Better gear selection instead higher = better? Mixing sets?
No, its the tryhards who are wrong and should take it easier on these poor pugs who have families and jobs.
Here's a thought, the gear you can acquire from scenarios is no longer considered top tier, and the separation will only continue to grow. There's a point where it's no longer skill or composition, much as some like to self-aggrandize, that separates the idiot pugs and the elite premade gods. Across the board better stats on gear will make one hell of a difference if you have marginal playing capability.

This isn't really about the tryhards doing anything wrong (but I enjoy making the point), but do you want to have scens to play or not? Are you actually a net positive to the overall scenario environment with that attitude? I'm not really convinced that's the mindset we as devs need to protect or foster, it seems like you'll take care of that just fine. There's a big difference between PvP that you actually stand a chance in and a BiS premade comp that could 6v12 and still trigger domination while piss drunk.
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Grunbag
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Re: How scenario works - Feedback

Post#16 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:57 pm

I think we could try to make domination back like it was few weeks ago , but make kills count only if they are done X feet (100?) around the active objective . By active objective I mean constested flag (one realm started cap it) or around bomb carrier . This way , if you farm player at their spawn it won’t count but if you dominate them during the objective cap it will trigger domination timer . So both objective and kills will matter
Grunbag - 40 - 33 Squig Herder
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peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: How scenario works - Feedback

Post#17 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:24 pm

Grunbag wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:57 pm
I think we could try to make domination back like it was few weeks ago , but make kills count only if they are done X feet (100?) around the active objective . By active objective I mean constested flag (one realm started cap it) or around bomb carrier . This way , if you farm player at their spawn it won’t count but if you dominate them during the objective cap it will trigger domination timer . So both objective and kills will matter
Nice in theory, but what would actually end up happening is that you would kill the enemy, they would stay in their WC, you would cap/control the objective....aaand they would still not come out. Domination would not trigger, and you'd end up with the same situation that happened before the domination changes, i.e unnecessarily prolonged and boring games.
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Grunbag
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Re: How scenario works - Feedback

Post#18 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:36 pm

peterthepan3 wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:24 pm
Grunbag wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:57 pm
I think we could try to make domination back like it was few weeks ago , but make kills count only if they are done X feet (100?) around the active objective . By active objective I mean constested flag (one realm started cap it) or around bomb carrier . This way , if you farm player at their spawn it won’t count but if you dominate them during the objective cap it will trigger domination timer . So both objective and kills will matter
Nice in theory, but what would actually end up happening is that you would kill the enemy, they would stay in their WC, you would cap/control the objective....aaand they would still not come out. Domination would not trigger, and you'd end up with the same situation that happened before the domination changes, i.e unnecessarily prolonged and boring games.
1 - if you don’t farm them at warcamp , they will have at least 1 chance to regroup and try again .

2 - You can cap objective if players don’t leave warcamp and domination could trigger if you own all objectives and no kills happened recently (just an idea)
Grunbag - 40 - 33 Squig Herder
Skorri - 40 - 65 Engineer

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Dabbart
Posts: 1970

Re: How scenario works - Feedback

Post#19 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:53 pm

Howdy guys, back again, been awhile. Note: I've been gone for a while, and only returned at the last x2 event. So my perspective is from playing since then only. A few thoughts:

1, Domination shouldn't count until 2min into the SC, and shouldn't kick-in until the 5th minute.
Spoiler:
This still alleviates the 10-15min curb stomps, while giving the winning team plenty of time to complete objectives to get a winning score total. This also gives the losers time to get their **** together and attempt a comeback. Due to late arrivals, players leaving the SC, etc the first few minutes of an SC isn't 100% indicative of how it will end.
2, Allow for different Domination rules for different SCs.
Spoiler:
SCs that have flag capture spots should allow a higher degree of kill difference. Just because 1 side is "zerging" around Reikwatch doesn't mean they are winning. Splitting up to cap flags and force the zerg to run in circles getting kills but losing objectives should be a valid strat to win. Conversely, SCs that have a single capture mechanic like a Bomb run, can be entirely locked down solely due to kills. Putting to much of a win condition on kills means that splitting up is detrimental.
3, Institute penalties for ignoring objectives
Spoiler:
This would actually be kinda fun. Refusing to pick up the Bomb could give a Warning siren after X time then the bomb just blows up, also, picking up the part but not running it should have something similar. If you pick up the part but after X time are not within 100ft of your capture zone you blow up and your team suffers some Debuff for a period

Volgo's suggestion for some type of WC buff would fit in very well here as too. Also, I dream of the day when Spawn guards have a little patrol zone so players don't know the exact point to which they can push towards...
4, Give full gains for all Kills in SCs.
Spoiler:
Note: I have been gone for quite awhile, so this might no longer be a thing, but from my very small sample size of SCs it appears to still be. I apologize if incorrect on this:
recently, peter posted an SC where he had 23 kills and a 192pt victory. This resulted in 30k xp and 3.4kRR. Thats 1.3k XP and 147RR per kill not counting the score bonus. Now, I 100% understand why kill rewards were removed and added to the end of the SC. But do we still require both? With full RR gains from kills, the benefit of curb stomping your enemies would be increased, and it would be a bit of a simple question then. Want RR/fights? then just go kill. Want Medallions? then obj based gameplay. Which, oddly enough, is strikingly similar to ORvR...
5, Add Kill quests for SCs.
Spoiler:
Note: I say Kill Quests but they don't have to be for Kills. Quests for completing objectives would work as well. One could even tie a quest chain including SC obj/kills with ORvR and even PvE mixed in to try and get players to roam about the places often ignored a little bit more...

I entirely understand why these were removed way back, but would a kill quests similar to ORvR(IE 50chaos/50greenskin/50DE) not help with the "gear grind" from SCs? I can understand not wanting to input quest chains similar to PvE for the gear, for a myriad of reasons(and I wouldn't ask for that level of work/time). However, at the end of the day, it wouldn't increase the level of PUG farming that is currently ongoing, and as stated SC gear is no longer BiS and the gap will continue to grow. So, "quickly" gathering the gear isn't game breaking by any stretch.

The difference between victory quests would be that these would require multiple SCs to complete, and victory isn't inherently required. But somewhat competent play and persistence would be rewarded. Which leads to number 6
6, Add a Comeback reward
Spoiler:
Nothing big, but if your team gets close to being Dominated(or is being Dominated outside of Obj points) then give the side that is pushing and struggling a little bonus. As it stands, pushing for those 100points is illogical, as it only delays the end of the SC, ensures that your opponents earn more(Dom kicking in at 300pts rather than 150 for them), and difference between gaining 25pts and 100pts is largely irrelevant in regards to rewards, especially if you don't have a team that can compete in a straight up fight.

A secondary system with this, would be to give a LARGE bonus to SC groups that manage a victory while drastically losing the K/D score. Note, again, I understand not wanting to give "free stuff" and the victory is it's own reward, but at the end of the day the largest battle is against the Playerbase and their inherent laziness.
7, Institute a penalty for all Zaxxed Players and others that continuously focus Tanks.
Spoiler:
j/k...
tldr: I'm big on carrots and sticks. I love the thought behind domination, and it's intention is wonderful. Obviously, trolls gonna troll, please don't let perfection stand in the way of progress though, keep tweaking it. It'll git gud.

Thanks for reading, and good to be back:P WAAAAGH

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Alfa1986
Posts: 330

Re: How scenario works - Feedback

Post#20 » Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:06 am

wargrimnir wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:18 pm
Eathisword wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:10 pm
wargrimnir wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:06 pm
I wasn't quite sure we had enough concurrent threads related to scenarios running. Maybe everyone will repeat their concerns here as well for good measure.
In my line of work the saying goes : if you repeat it enough, one day, they'll understand :P
Alas, the difference between understanding and coming to the same conclusion may be tricky if we have different objectives and goals.

We're not looking to destroy PvP as many have made a meme about it. Very mature those memes, easy to dismiss and such. The goal is to mitigate spawn camping and one sided stomps. Feedback that can help us reach that goal is more than welcome. Feedback that you are very sad about uncontested killfarming being discouraged is pretty much what we expected.

If you have suggestions for additional checks to prevent abuse of the mechanic, that would be fine. We're updating it as we find more creative ways to circumvent it.
it is very difficult to offer something when for many the real goal / objective of this domination is not full clear.
if the goal is to prohibit the premades farming pug, then you just need to triggered a buff when the difference in kills is reached, just say 20 , which would prohibit renown / medals any more. In this case, premades will have no more incentive to focus on the killings(mb only for add-on statistic) and they will go to fulfill the objectives in order to finish the scen faster and as soon as possible to get their 8 medals.

if the goal is to speed up the scenario with the clear advantage of one team, then it is not clear why domination works then from the killings and not from the difference in the score (fexp 100-300).

domination should not be noticeable to the players and turn on when further resistance does not make sense. but also domination should not punish the winners. this is how I understand what the developers would like to do. different scenarios have different conditions, and not always a weak team should lose to a stronger one, on some maps it may well win if it has a more mobility.
In general, my suggestions:
- to speed up the obviously lost scenario, the domination should be turned on when the difference between teams gets in the score at 300 points.
- to prevent farming by premade of weak groups, hang a buff (dont get any renown and get medals any more) on premade when the difference in the number of kills of 20(30-40-50 dazntmatter could dispute) or more is reached.
-when sc haz domination in the end, the winning team must receive more rewards, say not 8 but 10(12-15 disput), for increase stimul from teams to play better.

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