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Vaul
Posts: 261

Re: test guard

Post#61 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:07 pm

Will just throw an idea I've had in here. How about Guard percentage is linked to tank's health starting at the normal 50% at full health but e.g. starts to drop towards 25% as you fall below x% hp. Same for all types of tank but obv. more defensive you are better you will be at guarding.
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blakokami
Posts: 114

Re: test guard

Post#62 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:11 pm

TIL that the server lead(s) don't know simple game mechanics but they are willing to completely change them....

Wait I already knew that.

AKA revert the change fully and don't try to re-invent the wheel with anymore changes to guard.

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OldSparky
Posts: 80

Re: test guard

Post#63 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:20 pm

Acidic wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:23 pm
rmpl wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:03 pm
Acidic wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:02 pm
I think keeping the type of damage though guard is a good thing. This equalizes out the effects of the different damage mitigation skills. Without this equaling out of benefit parry values should become more expensive than to reflect its benefit in 2h builds
Have you considered the effect this would have on ORVR?
Yes and it may well mean that tanks have to rethink resists and such fun things but I think also that casters should not have thier damage mitigated by a melee skill.
Have not the maths energy or patience to estimate if this would reintroduce BW/Soc taking over even more spots in open rvr, I’m sure hogan will do that for us :)
>tanks may have to rethink resists

ANY competent tank will at least try to stack resists to a reasonable degree and many groups will usually have a chosen/knight with resist aura. So, tell me, what part of +/- 900 resists do I have to rethink?

If I misunderstood you or something, maybe you meant avoidance/mitigation? Because for those there's also really simple solution - spend renown in those and grab a T4 Empire/Chaos Epic Quest 2h weapon, which procs with additional 10% in Parry/Dodge/Disrupt and perhaps even go as far as other tome sets than Winds Impervious.

EDIT: Also I'm sure guard damage was just raw damage redirected from guardee as melee attack meaning only Block, then Parry, or in case of 2h, Parry were the only defense against guard damage... Unless the original attack was undefendable.

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Telen
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Re: test guard

Post#64 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:30 pm

Xergon wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:16 pm

Very cool and interesting data BUT you missing one point. AoE Magic attacks that can hit both of you same time.
Do test for that, when both of you (Tank + Guarded Ally) stand in one place and you are getting hit by AoE Magical attacks, and show us how much damage/hits you will receive.
Well if they were both 2h tanks they would push half the damage they didn’t disrupt to each other as parryable damage. Why do you think you get crossguarded tanks roaming backlines.
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Jaycub
Posts: 3135

Re: test guard

Post#65 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:58 pm

Yaliskah wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:53 pm
.....

Now theory crafters, what would imply this change (admitting 50% guard is reverted)?

(As a reminder, stay cool. We are discussing)
Well the TL:DR is you are still nerfing 2h tanks, specific ones unfairly... While simultaneously buffing an archetype that needed no help in RvR... RDPS.

So the long form, as someone who played every tank on RoR to a high level mostly in 6v6 environments but I tried to get into 6vX RvR and Organized wb play as much as possible, Except for IB because you guys refuse to buff that horrible meme class. Avoidance is the most overpowered stat in the game in terms of investment vs outcome. Every single 2h tank spec pulls as much avoidance from renown etc... as they can because you get so much bang for your buck. SnB you can sort of get away with not spending those points, but not after this change not that it's going to break any snb builds having to do so.

So you aren't forcing 2h tanks to do anything they aren't already doing, just punishing them with more dmg taken across the board making them unplayable in RvR. Now some tanks like BG can stack tons of disrupt, SM has WoDS, Chosen gets parry etc... but you got some real losers out there like blorc.

MDPS was already a huge meme in RvR, besides some marauder builds. This change just makes it so snb tanks (which is what you'll be using 100%) now take more dmg from RDPS so there's even less of an incentive for organized wbs to consider bringing mdps when now your BW/Sorc etc... AoE spam does even more damage to a ball.

6v6 would honestly be the least effected, I don't think it would matter all that much unless people started running 3-2-1 groups more. 2h tanks would be taking more guard damage for sure, but enough to melt them from that alone? I don't think so, and swapping to 2h tank at a certain percentage with a setup like ranged stagger on a healer and punt the other tank isn't anything new.
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Glorian
Posts: 4451

Re: test guard

Post#66 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:23 pm

PQs, ORvR, Slayers and Warhammer are the unique selling points of Age of Reckoning.
And another one is Guard.
The first MMO where a tank class is usefull in PvP because you can protect another player and take half his damage on you.
And the tank has a chance to block/parry/dodge that damage. So he can parry that damage as it doesn't matter if the sorc hit your guarded target or an melee attack.

And on Return of Reckoning Guard is also one of the core functions that makes this game great. And by shacking that foundation you are shacking of the foundation of everything. Guard-Tanks are fundamental for warbands, fundamental for pve, and fundamental for keeping a double roaming group alive.

So I still can't see why to change it into anything different then its version 1 week ago. I see no problem and no benefit to tamper with damage types which will lead to a shift in meta no one can estimate at this point.

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DokB
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Posts: 494

Re: test guard

Post#67 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:10 pm

Nekkma wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:00 pm
But most importantly: If it aint broke don’t fix it.
All that needs to be said really.
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Luth
Posts: 2857

Re: test guard

Post#68 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:19 pm

hogun wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:31 pm
why this asked questions about guard ? l because it is a source of absorption of phenomenal damage. whatever the situation, rvr, sc ect.
the fact that we can make them almost totally disappear quite easily with the parade is a choice of game not necessarily shared by all.
Damage dealers (the real ones, not the 2H tank meme) are a source of phenomenal damage. Healers are a source of phenomenal anti-damage called heals. They can even make all damage totally disappear.
Additionally they can resurrect people and do lots of other cool stuff, which also very phenomenal.
This is the foundation of the game.

The fact that the guard change was a smart move is not necessarily shared by all.

Acidic wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:23 pm
Have not the maths energy or patience to estimate if this would reintroduce BW/Soc taking over even more spots in open rvr,
What i see on the pics he posted:
He fed an external application with the combat log from the game. The application creates some convenient pie charts. The same can be done by anyone in no time using the combat log of the addon "enemy", excluding the fancy pie charts ofc.

The OP also let the outcome of the test look worse by lowering the parry chance of his first test (2H) from ~70% to ~40% in his second test (s&b). To bolster the difference, he added ~40% block chance.
This is wrong, because it means he assumes that by changing the weapon loadout from 2H to S&B, one trades parry chance for block chance.
Instead, you get block chance and keep the same parry chance. Unique 2H/s&b class abilities/tactics are to be neglected; this is not about class balancing.

If the block test had been done correct, it would have reduced the 30% estimated hits from the first test further to (1-0.4)*(1-0.7)=18% on the second test.
Due to the nature of the test and what the OP wanted to prove with it (at least that's what i get from his post), this could have been done without gathering any numbers and fancy pie charts at all.
Acidic wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:23 pm
I’m sure hogan will do that for us :)

That's the right spirit.

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Eathisword
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Posts: 804

Re: test guard

Post#69 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:20 am

Spoiler:
Yaliskah wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:53 pm
*Hold the line and jump*

To begin with, and to calm down everyone, we actual 2h guard change not gonna stay in its actual state.
Lot of passionate discussions around this radical test and finally some propositions here and there.

I never hid that I was not a theorycrafter, but these recent exchange point to me some details i didn't knew (and seems lot of ppl don't know too).

When it come to damages from guard, all damages are converted as melee damages. Which mean, even if a BW hit the guarded target, the damage from guard are converted on melee damages. This point heckle me.

Reading guard description of the ability, first line says :
Image
"You defend one of your groupmates and try to take attacks meant for them". Implying, your body becomes his shield you try to intercept damages before he receive them, not "you remove part of damages when it is too late" .

Ofc it is just a description. From original client, and it doesn't mean it is supposed to work like this.

Some have tried to explore the client to try to understand how it was done. before reading further, some hardcore aprt are obviously parts are missing to confirm 100% the general idea, but according the understanding of abilities a guard should have been designed like this :
"When i hit X who is guarded by Y. X and Y take the same attack with 50%, but it will affect Y only if X takes damages."

Ofc, this is not what happening actually, and from some memories, this is not what happened on Live too, and i'm not gonna say the opposite.

Point is, i don't undestand the reasoning behind this sudden damage conversion when we talk about damage from guard, and i wonder what would happen if these attacks were prevserving their nature (basing my argument on description of the ability itself).

On a second point, does it mean that undefendable damages if they are divided (no idea haven't tested) are converted too ?

To summarize (tell me if i mistaken something, maybe forgot dodge here and there):
Image

And if we were taking account of nature of the attack :

Image

Now theory crafters, what would imply this change (admitting 50% guard is reverted)?

(As a reminder, stay cool. We are discussing)
Ok I wanted to reply a wall of text to this... But let's just bring one example :

Dots. The way guard works now, every tick of every dot is transferred in guard damage as separate attacks. Meaning, every tick hits the guarded ally but the tank can parry/block each tick of his half. If true damage type were to be shared, would this still be the case ? Or would dot damage be only defendable on application for both the guardian and guarded ?

If its stays the same, and the half of the ''guarded'' dot could be disrupted by the tank, then tank like BG would get a massive buff out of it, thanks to massive disrupt capacity and speed proc tactic on disrupt. SnB IB would also get a massive buff with avalanche, willpower buff and HtL. Conversely, if it wouldn't and the tank couldn't defend his half of the dot, then this would be a massive buff to Magic Rdps, and AoE dot class would just crush everything. Even SnB tank wouldn't be able to survive the havoc. That's 1 problematic about what you are proposing to open up. I came up with it in 5 seconds and I am honestly not that savvy at all about the game mechanics and the intricacy of WB play.

Imagine how many more broken things we could end up with. Makes no sense to me to want to do that to fix 2H vs SnB tank disparity, unless you believe a ton of things need a complete overhaul too.

I might be totally wrong, but the vibe I get from all this is : a ''learn to play your tank class properly outside of zerg'' issue has been transformed into a ''rehaul the complete combat system'' issue. Just fix the goddamn SnB mastery so SnB tank can have more potential than being good at stacking block and leave guard as it was. You'll save yourself dev time and a lot of advil money.
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Tesq
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Re: test guard

Post#70 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:11 am

@OP

-ok you have a 2h sword with 0 parry rate and 20 rr invested in parry
-now you have a shield with 400 block rate and 20 rr point invested

you have the same parry on both spec, and in 1 case also some block aswell, guess what you had traded 20dps from 2h into 1h to have those 400 block rate from shield into the other hand...

conclusion if 2h are really that amazing, s+b can spec the same as described above.

-if not you are wrong as s+b is better
-if yes you are wrong again because 2h is not better, is the same so there should eb no guard difference....or rather s+b mastery should get a fix.

aka you are wrong anyway...stop beat the dead horse you cant say one spec block the otehr spec parry with same renown poitns they both spec parry and s+b is slight better while 2h do slight more dmg. the rest is spec preference and yes ppl will spec more block as it give additional benefith, such as being punt less or be less pressured unlike a 2h.
Telen wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:28 pm
Nekkma wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:22 pm
Yes, but why? Do snb tanks not feel enough tanky? Or do you advocate for a snb offensive tank build?
I'd reduce guard avoidance so snb retain their avoidance levels and 2h is slightly reduced but keep their 50% guard. I just think the 25% guard reduction is taking a hammer to the issue.

Yes additive means more guard avoidance for snb. Instead of nerfing the **** out of 2h guard. buff snb.
I dont like nerf balancing. I like buffs as that doesnt piss everyone off.
additive would be crazy, most of tank would reach between 80-100% avoidance vs melee and all will have 100% vs ranged in the current sich, just think gogin around with a 40% block in sov then add 18% parry from renown and 25% from sefl buffing (40+18+25= 83%), now 40% with 45% from htl and 18 from renown (40+45+18=101%)

Yaliskah wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:53 pm
....
in live it has always worked as a melee attack, if you have the will to look at all tanks you see they all have block and or parry in abbundance all over their mastery, only few have disrupt increase and none have dodge incease. This is exatly to allow a easy guard mitigation, lack of dodge is because bal skill based class do les dmg than int one.

The problem of 2h tanks is NOT easy guard mitigation: GUARD MUST BE EASY BECAUSE IT ALSO NEED TO WORK IN RVR AND ALL PLAYSTILE MUST BE VIABLE BOTH 2H AND S+B IN ANY SCALE.

-->you are trying to fix the wrong problem

2h in sc take healable dmg if focussed just like a s+b-->this is the issue when it happena 6 vs 6,

if it's a 12 vs 12 it's alredy a bit different story because the burst is higher, but the game has NEVER being designed for 6 vs 6 in core meccanic, yes we does have a small scale but this dosent mean you have to nerf the whole guard because in 6 vs 6 the 2h are prevalents.

What distinguish s+b and 2h is 20 dps more on 2h than have block rate on shnields and just that. This is the level (core level) we are talking to; ALL OTHER DIFFERENCE ARE AT MASTERY FLOOR /"GRADE/LEVEL" and dosent have anything to do with the base core level.

-core level (archtype stuff)
-mastery level (mastery addionals such tactics and skills)
-morales level (offensive vs defense morales)

if you take the time to compare the 2h bg left mastery vs the s+b mastery of IB you will see that there is a problem!!!!
moreover if you are really convinced about 2h have a dps problem then the left masterys of all tanks should be fixed to not bring MORE dmg than what mid and right can (stuff you had over patch history done (mean team here)), by bind skill with good dmg potential to 2h or increase the dmg potential of left mastery when it was low exept on ch/kobs/sm. Or either you remove any bind to 2h and s+b and let anyone spec as he want on left mastery and mid mastery.

-A good starting point would be un-nerf some bind to 2h for some skills or 2h advanateg vs s+b.
-some masterys just require buff and fix and you need someone to do that, point! you can pick me or @road or anyone with 9/10 game expereience with the game for what it does matter at this point but god take someone which had a very long concrete expereicenw it the game, so far we had aza , someone that stop play the game half way in live for what i got and torque which i never knew what experience had ... you dont let balance the game to ppl like this not because i "hate" em becaus this is not the smartest thing to do point.

what i wrote here are all the problems the game is in dire need of a general fix (aka this shoudl be a priority list if you know the game for what it is)

-lack viability of 2h in wb/orvr exept BG (exept gank and kite)-->it's due to masterys
-lack of viability of s+b in sc/small scale exept kobs (just ppl prefer 10% off crit than 5 and 5 and due punt..)--->it's due to mastery
-useless of def morales vs offensive one ( it's due to def morales)
-bad 1200 m2 assignation to some classes.
-bad morales scaling
-IB mid mastery dead
-bg right mastery dead
-kobs right mastery dead (unless stag and 1 tactic make it alive ingoring everything else).
-chosen mid AND left mastery dead
-Bo mid mastery dead
-BO op left mastery panic button (**** sake vigilance gone in retirement after had saw it) usable even in s+b (when there is one to fix instead..)
-Choppa core viable , all mastery spec mediocre
-slayer the only melee using an aoe build in small sale (guess why?)
-mara 100% GoM /slayer 100% rampage-->OMG.....
-mara/slayer still king of the chainfood and can be used 2x in any small scale
-inconsistency between st CD increase and aoe CD increase ( same value, aoe should be half the st as any other aoe stuff in game)
-inconsistency between group CD decrease and aoe cd increase (same value but 6 target vs 9 )
-Wl mediocre aoe build
-WH no aoe build
-WE no aoe build
-still using heal based on dmg pretending they cant work THEY CANT (my god..)
-heal dps mastery are 4 fun
-magus/engi mid mastery still lacking
-dps having access to the same tanks KD durations...
-still some ap higher than what skill does on some classes
-IB/CH/Sorc/engi excluded from a balanced CD readuction killed their aoe or aoe potentiality
-abbundance of gap closer aka the game has became "hello jumping kitty" in some cases (aka alpha strike had became more and more prevalent in some group configurations or in open world sich where you cant estimate well anymoe the spatial difference between you and enemy; and this is something extremly bad for the game and unfun):
-....

and i probably forgot something too.
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