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Fix The Order Zerg

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Nishka
Posts: 955

Re: Fix The Order Zerg

Post#71 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:07 pm

CountTalabecland wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:52 pm
Dying doesn't add to your contribution and the outnumbered sides does a lot of dying. Simply playing the winning side is a lot easier and less frustrating than trying to make an efficient small group, which also takes a lot of time and still gets speed bumped by the blob when they get caught. My point is that playing the winning side and getting a crappy roll in the 30-45 minutes it takes to PvDoor a zone is still the "easier" way to play than taking 30 min in forming a 6 man with comms and 2:2:2 to go hunt down stragglers for a couple of kills per hour. Path of least resistance and all that.

People do what feels good and is enjoyable, and zerg surfing is apparently more enjoyable, hence why no one seems all too bothered about playing the numerically superior side. Only way to stop the zerg is to make the experience of being massively outnumbered not feel like complete crap and an a** kicking for most ppl who do not want to 6 man aao gank. No idea how that could be done so things are probably fine the way they are and just accept the population of a 2 realm game won't always be 50/50.
Then don't hunt struggler? You're accusing zergers of following the path of the least resistance, but making a group just to kill solo travelers is the same path. Better join a keep def. An organized party can make a world of difference. Lead and inspire the zerg with your example.
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"Well, once there was only chaos. You ask me, order's winning". - Grandmaster Siegfried Trappenfeld

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Aurandilaz
Posts: 1814

Re: Fix The Order Zerg

Post#72 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:12 pm

Said before, allow AAO buff to increase your AoE dmg from being limited to 9, to being able to hit more than just the 9 first people in 100 strong enemy blob. Blob forms because safety in numbers - only frontline people get hit, everyone behind is standing safe.
If underdog has higher AAO, they should be able to do more than just hit first 9 people and then overrrun by the masses hiding behind first 9 people.
So that even a 6man or 12man or 1 WB alone would be able to deal massive punishment to a larger blob, who are trying to use safety in numbers tactic, but AAO on enemy would allow them to be punished in return as the AoE from underdog would reach deeper and hurt far more than just the tanky frontline.

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CountTalabecland
Posts: 522

Re: Fix The Order Zerg

Post#73 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:16 pm

Spoiler:
Nishka wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:07 pm
CountTalabecland wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:52 pm
Dying doesn't add to your contribution and the outnumbered sides does a lot of dying. Simply playing the winning side is a lot easier and less frustrating than trying to make an efficient small group, which also takes a lot of time and still gets speed bumped by the blob when they get caught. My point is that playing the winning side and getting a crappy roll in the 30-45 minutes it takes to PvDoor a zone is still the "easier" way to play than taking 30 min in forming a 6 man with comms and 2:2:2 to go hunt down stragglers for a couple of kills per hour. Path of least resistance and all that.

People do what feels good and is enjoyable, and zerg surfing is apparently more enjoyable, hence why no one seems all too bothered about playing the numerically superior side. Only way to stop the zerg is to make the experience of being massively outnumbered not feel like complete crap and an a** kicking for most ppl who do not want to 6 man aao gank. No idea how that could be done so things are probably fine the way they are and just accept the population of a 2 realm game won't always be 50/50.
Then don't hunt struggler? You're accusing zergers of following the path of the least resistance, but making a group just to kill solo travelers is the same path. Better join a keep def. An organized party can make a world of difference. Lead and inspire the zerg with your example.
That is assuming that there is anyone else in the keep with them, you have been here on RoR a lot longer than me, so you know how stagnant and one-sided the population gets. Most of the time, by the point where there is aao, then one 6 man won't make a difference. If you are talking about the point where there is a malus, then even less so. This morning I watched 3+ Order WBs take empty keeps in DW and Caledor in about an hour and a half with 1 dest 6 man in the zone and a couple in the keep who killed no one and got wrecked instantly when door came down, no one went running over to dest. And this is all from the OPs post about how do you get most of the people who play the game not to flock to the winning side. Clearly spending more time to make a 6 man is not the answer as it has always existed and people have still chosen to just play the winning side instead.
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Kabuterimonga
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Posts: 184

Re: Fix The Order Zerg

Post#74 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:47 pm

there is nothing to be fixed, this game is about war, massive battles, the goal is to win, take over the enemy keep and lock zone, to do this you need to win every battle possible and to acomplish just that, you need teamwork, talk to warband leaders and coordinate, there are warband leaders and zerg leaders, when this zerg leaders are online, some PUG warbands will follow that Zerg leader warband, it's how it suposed to be, or sometimes there is no zerg leader but a guild warband, so you follow that to win.

if there is no zerg lead warband, one side will fall due to not holdin a zerg together, that's it. It is what realm vs realm means. massive fights. If you are not into it, you can solo roam, duo roam, premade roam while queuein for scenarios, this goes for both winnin or loosin side.
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User avatar
Nishka
Posts: 955

Re: Fix The Order Zerg

Post#75 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:05 pm

CountTalabecland wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:16 pm
Spoiler:
Nishka wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:07 pm
CountTalabecland wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:52 pm
Dying doesn't add to your contribution and the outnumbered sides does a lot of dying. Simply playing the winning side is a lot easier and less frustrating than trying to make an efficient small group, which also takes a lot of time and still gets speed bumped by the blob when they get caught. My point is that playing the winning side and getting a crappy roll in the 30-45 minutes it takes to PvDoor a zone is still the "easier" way to play than taking 30 min in forming a 6 man with comms and 2:2:2 to go hunt down stragglers for a couple of kills per hour. Path of least resistance and all that.

People do what feels good and is enjoyable, and zerg surfing is apparently more enjoyable, hence why no one seems all too bothered about playing the numerically superior side. Only way to stop the zerg is to make the experience of being massively outnumbered not feel like complete crap and an a** kicking for most ppl who do not want to 6 man aao gank. No idea how that could be done so things are probably fine the way they are and just accept the population of a 2 realm game won't always be 50/50.
Then don't hunt struggler? You're accusing zergers of following the path of the least resistance, but making a group just to kill solo travelers is the same path. Better join a keep def. An organized party can make a world of difference. Lead and inspire the zerg with your example.
That is assuming that there is anyone else in the keep with them, you have been here on RoR a lot longer than me, so you know how stagnant and one-sided the population gets. Most of the time, by the point where there is aao, then one 6 man won't make a difference. If you are talking about the point where there is a malus, then even less so. This morning I watched 3+ Order WBs take empty keeps in DW and Caledor in about an hour and a half with 1 dest 6 man in the zone and a couple in the keep who killed no one and got wrecked instantly when door came down, no one went running over to dest. And this is all from the OPs post about how do you get most of the people who play the game not to flock to the winning side. Clearly spending more time to make a 6 man is not the answer as it has always existed and people have still chosen to just play the winning side instead.
I've been defending keep against a wb or two in a group of 6 people not so long ago. No discord, some being pre-40. Still, we scored a lot of kills and sometimes even managed to push away the whole zerg. You'd be surprised how many kills you can do when the whole zerg rushes to the main gates and you deploy the oil. In the end you still lose but renown wise, it's totally worth it.
Image
"Well, once there was only chaos. You ask me, order's winning". - Grandmaster Siegfried Trappenfeld

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vianiznice
Posts: 186

Re: Fix The Order Zerg

Post#76 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:13 pm

It changes every six months or so, you'll see.

Egoish
Posts: 149

Re: Fix The Order Zerg

Post#77 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:33 pm

I hope ot flips soon, my order characters are so cold and negliected.

Allie
Posts: 12

Re: Fix The Order Zerg

Post#78 » Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:06 am

Aurandilaz wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:12 pm
Said before, allow AAO buff to increase your AoE dmg from being limited to 9, to being able to hit more than just the 9 first people in 100 strong enemy blob. Blob forms because safety in numbers - only frontline people get hit, everyone behind is standing safe.
If underdog has higher AAO, they should be able to do more than just hit first 9 people and then overrrun by the masses hiding behind first 9 people.
So that even a 6man or 12man or 1 WB alone would be able to deal massive punishment to a larger blob, who are trying to use safety in numbers tactic, but AAO on enemy would allow them to be punished in return as the AoE from underdog would reach deeper and hurt far more than just the tanky frontline.
i like this idea

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Nekkma
Posts: 501

Re: Fix The Order Zerg

Post#79 » Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:36 am

Aurandilaz wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:12 pm
Said before, allow AAO buff to increase your AoE dmg from being limited to 9, to being able to hit more than just the 9 first people in 100 strong enemy blob. Blob forms because safety in numbers - only frontline people get hit, everyone behind is standing safe.
If underdog has higher AAO, they should be able to do more than just hit first 9 people and then overrrun by the masses hiding behind first 9 people.
So that even a 6man or 12man or 1 WB alone would be able to deal massive punishment to a larger blob, who are trying to use safety in numbers tactic, but AAO on enemy would allow them to be punished in return as the AoE from underdog would reach deeper and hurt far more than just the tanky frontline.
The problem with making one side stronger or weaker based on AAO is that AAO is not local but rather global throughout the zone. Presently, the side with more people zerg it up at the keep, massively outnumbering the defenders. On the other side of the map, there can be a wb+ worth of people from the "underdog" side, massively outnumbering the attackers, ganking stragglers trying to get to the keep.

There is no need to fiddle with AAO mechanics. Buffing aoe in general would achieve the same thing, that is to allow a smaller force of better players to wipe large numbers of unorganized players, without introducing a mechanic where the worse team actually win because of a handicap mechanic and not because of skill. The drawback is of course the possibilities of endless stalemates at keeps since funneling becomes way more viable with stronger aoe.
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Vaul
Posts: 261

Re: Fix The Order Zerg

Post#80 » Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:58 pm

This is not about Order, or about Destruction, imho. I don't think it's even about balancing population numbers, or rewards via AAO, or xrealming.

I think the core problem seems to be the optimal and/or easiest strategy for capturing a zone and progressing the campaign is to Zerg - is there a better strategy???? Forts have perhaps accentuated this lately as the carrot for capturing a zone got fatter.

Hypothetical question, but even with equal populations, would 4 separate WBs (96ppl) working together but in different areas of a map be able to lock a zone versus a single 96-man megazerg? I don't know, perhaps they could, but this would seem to require more effort in terms of coordination etc.
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