Recent Topics

Ads

Bolstering looks stupid now

Let's talk about... everything else
User avatar
Darks63
Posts: 651

Re: Bolstering looks stupid now

Post#31 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:48 pm

Tldr version: OP tried to solo a lowbie, lost, and now wants bolster nerfed so sub 40s are free kills.
Tourist SW 40/50+<Zaxxed> Discotec 40/40+<IRONIC>

Former Pragg/Badlands Destro Iron Rock/Badlands Order player.

Ads
User avatar
Wam
Posts: 803

Re: Bolstering looks stupid now

Post#32 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:22 pm

Nidwin wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:51 pm Wam,
I've no "problem" with you but your experiences and opinions are subjective and may not reflect reality. I see your points and I'm sure you don't have any bad or ill intentions but this doesn't mean that I'm going to agree with you.

You are making very specific claims without backing them up with anything except having to take your word for it. And it works, I'm sure, but not with me.

Your words, not mine.
1. TUP going to play order for reason x,y,z
2. BW bomb is the way to go on order, nothing else up to 8 BW wb's (your own guide for order)
3. Yes, I know how to counter it but not going to say how. (Your words)
4. TUP mains destro and we hope to play destro full time again very soonish.

And as I wrote above, no bad or ill intentions on your side, but be a bit more careful in the future. Just a little advice.
be careful of what? you can twist my words to suit your agenda its okay, easy to do in written format :)

1) yes because order guilds was on verge of breaking at the time I mean bitterstones alone had lost over 50% population mate just because you are not aware of some information that I am privy too, order population was down in the dumps, destro had all the momentum... now with new gear, a dbl xp event, helping out order a little bit, order have some numbers again... when you want to raid for 3-4 hours, and its over after 1/1.5 hour because you dominate and enemy gives up that is no good bro so yeah we have our reasons make of them what you will.

2) We use 6 ideally (doesnt have to be 8???), anymore is a bonus, guide suggest 5-8 (4 at bare minimum... its not too disimilar to what i would recommend on destro just there is slightly more room for more variety on destro atleast) I even say some other dps classes have a role do not take me wrong way. I only said WL/SW have lesser role in large scale in comparison which is true, they are better at Small scale, just different flavours for different situations.

3) I have given alot of answers on how to counter different things already, when I don't have to give any answers what so ever... I cannot do all the work and provide it on a plate on how i would counter us on both sides, its pretty straight forward things not rocket science... we are not immortal and never claim to be, we bleed and die just like anyone else, I would argue the main difference is i would probably take us back to a fight faster that's it.

4) Bro we play around others, we react to the community, we prefer our mains/originals, we have always said this... you have no idea what happens behind the scenes and how much goes into it... I track down other guilds and pass along information and inform them of our intent so people on both sides have a rough idea... we are scouting zones a hour inadvance, we know when large guilds will be out, we zonepop often... tell me who else does such things and swap sides to try get some balance... on sunday we went order(I even popped a renown potion on marauder ready to play destro that evening but NRM & PNP on same side), on monday we went destro...
Spoiler:
on wed's NRM & PNP are on destro... traditonally order also should bring good numbers on this day, we fought the grand alliance for a long time with NRM in great war... so we could be either side to be honest i inform both sides, and its last minute decision (last 10-15 minute decision anyways :P) Personal preference is destro, that is our defacto realm.

On wed's NRM & PNP are together on destro, that means on a organised level maybe we should be on order(maybe is key word), it depends what they bring (organised and numbers wise), the numbers indifference at the start... but with all the zerging that order do throughout the day then vanish during prime time... do they deserve to be helped? and we play whatever we want just like everyone else. We always leave number check and make a final decision 10-15 minutes before raid which can swing back and forth. Also with the lockout change also gave more food for thought to pick which side.

Like one time recently in high pass we went order because NRM wiped 2 pug warbands, because those russians are big meanies and kill everything before we log in and thus disort numbers and population :twisted: so makes our job of judging numbers even harder... order was farmed at warcamp despite outnumbering... because NRM was higher organised/stronger... so the last thing order needed in this moment was TUP to join destro on the battlefield... we went order we wiped a few destro, but then all of a sudden there was a huge spike in order numbers and there was a 100 difference in zone population and it was just pure zerg, so cntk i think got ram we escort, we take keep, we swap sides for the next zone to even it out and help destro... 70 other order people disappear after this zerg because of our ethos of not swapping sides during keep siege and trying to our best to play fairly and nicely despite all the bullshits people try to fling and make stick to us no matter what we do. So next zone was zzzzzz TUP/NRM no real opposition left, no numbers to face.

If you only quote some of my words, you are cherry picking, I also mention about punishing zerging realm if order take too much advantage of our kindness we can always revert to defacto status and apply pressure with no mercy again if so desired (ideally order step up so we never have to fill in prime time but the reality is its more complicated than that with time zones and orders often divided and casual attitude... It is what it is, cannot do anymore than we currently do... Order really lack a King Ocara type persistant pug leader that can galvanise entire realm and bring it together no matter odds, besides Erihon as he's usually pre primetime). It's something I always keep a eye on for both sides and take it fully into account whenever making a decision on which realm to pick. Numbers indifference, organised vs unorganised, over zerging status, what is right side to play and what we would like to play all come into the equation mate...

NRM are actually our only official allies, and we fight with and against them...

I don't even think you realise the amount of work needed to run a proper warband on both sides... its hard enough for some to be a warband just one side, but we are one of the failsafe's(aao police) of server if one side needs boosting from time to time we will do it begrudgingly, otherwise no enemies = no fights = boring zzz been there done that too many times. Some people with outdated realm pride notions, see ooo dirty x realming... I see it as providing action and challenge where there would otherwise be none and thus no point to play. We don't troll with our x realming, we don't encourage push on keeps then swap to farm easy mode like we could do and others have done before us. We get alot of salt no matter what side we pick, or play with some integrity. People take us swapping sides and killing them too personally. The other day we get told we are pvdoorer's for getting most kills in every zone we go too and locking 3 zones during primetime where zonepop said the most order players was, and doing our own thing and not communicating/running with zone blob 24/7. Even tanking lords, killing players too. No matter what we do good or bad in your eyes or your opinion, its never enough for some people in the community and just makes me laugh because you can't please everyone.

Now just imagine if we didn't have such ethos or care for server health/realm populations... server would be alot poorer for it in my opinion. When our long term enemies of year+ was in dire need of help, guess who stepped up and helped them instead of kicked them when they was down. Now tell me we are the bad guys :3

what claims do i need to back up? i usually let our actions do the talking... you want me to come across as sounding egotisical in written format and misinterpreted? (I know our track record, people who have fought us know what we are capable of) I know my experience being guild leader and raid leader of 99.8% of TUP raids might vary to others, and also demands alot of energy... I know i have a good group of officers and core players who trust and follow me, I don't say things lightly (we are good at doing our own thing, do I think we are the best? no i don't really say such things because you only as good as your last fight no matter what you do before, complaceny is always the biggest killer in my opinion, I let others do the talking and have their own ideas and myths, I know for fact NRM are our number 1 threat and long time allies) ... like i don't take decisions to swap sides lightly either, I have scouts and talk to reasonable people in community who tell it like it is without retarded bias. Because order or destro we are all part of the same community, its not them and us... without them there is no us... both sides need each other.

Thats why nerf threads piss me off as it purposely fragments community more and that is something this community can do without, anyone could be the biggest sarcastic devil's advocate proclaiming to counter nerf everything and what you are left with a inferior product and worse balance GG.
Good way to derail topic by bringing my name into it for some unknown reason... people spend hundreds if not thousands of hours post level 40 gaining renown in large scale or sc's, roleplaying, pveing in dungeons... I got to lvl 6-40 on BW in like 2 days, aprox 12 hours+ on dbl xp weekend without try harder too much (yeah i know thats not the norm as boosted) but im pretty sure other cagey veterans can get to 40 within a week without try harding or dbl xp if they was really determined and put in the time. So all that pre lvl 40 content is nice for nostalgia, for exploration, for tome unlock people, good for new players who have never done... but to me i consider it largely insignificant (but its good its there) compared to the bread and butter of ROR which is large scale warfare/orvr. Then you add in Dungeons now with gunbad/City, and other means of accquiring good gear for large scale warfare that ROR brings, game is pvp based... that is why the lag and ram despawns due to lag was such a major issue... but now that is fixed and game runs alot smoother, its pretty good, its possible to do more fancy plays now without lag.

This game as different strokes for different folks, others game might start at lvl 1... and they get to lvl 16 and start again over and over if they enjoy that kinda thing thats cool to each their own... but the real core of the game to me and my guild starts 40+ I haven't seen a argument that can persuade me to think differently. Lets me see 12 hours vs thousands of hours :roll: :twisted: :lol:
Wamizzle Guild Leader [TUP]
Wamizzle Guild Leader [The Unlikely Plan]

User avatar
anarchypark
Posts: 2073

Re: Bolstering looks stupid now

Post#33 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:00 pm

[quote=mikke post_id=336619 time=1544525239 user_id=52708]
[quote=WExWH post_id=336613 time=1544521869 user_id=231199]
player who knows how the bolster work will be powerful but for people who don't know how the bolster work like new player they will feel useless. nothing new :roll:
[/quote]

This. And killing such player should be rewarded well.
[/quote]


you saved yourself from being killed by low lvl. that's your reward.
bolster is aid for low lvls, not a method to farm low lvls.

40rr killed 20rr, he gets 20rp,
whether 20rr is skilled or not.
how do you put player skill into reward formula anyway?
SM8, SW8, AM8, WL7, KoBS5, BW5, WP8, WH7, IB7, Eng5, RP5, SL6
BG8, Sorc8, DoK8, WE7, Chs8, Mg8, Ze7, Mara8, BO6, SH7, Shm5, Chop4
SC summary - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=20415
( last update : 2020.06.09)

User avatar
wargrimnir
Head Game Master
Posts: 8280
Contact:

Re: Bolstering looks stupid now

Post#34 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:00 pm

This doesn't seem like a productive thread...
Image
[email protected] for exploits and cheaters.
grimnir.me Some old WAR blog

User avatar
Ugle
Posts: 589

Re: Bolstering looks stupid now

Post#35 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:04 pm

The only valid whine in ops post is the low renown gained for killing bolstered players. I posted a potential solution to this in an earlier thread on the same topic.

In short, a good solution would be to use the sum of the bolstered stats to define the amount of renown gained for killing them.

Then the newbie who dosent use the bolster mechanic to its potential (the "free kill") would give low renown while the experienced players using the bolster mechanic to its potential would give renown as per the difficuly of killing him as a result.

This way you extract "player skill" from the equation.

Win - win.
inactive

User avatar
wargrimnir
Head Game Master
Posts: 8280
Contact:

Re: Bolstering looks stupid now

Post#36 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:15 pm

Ugle wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:04 pm The only valid whine in ops post is the low renown gained for killing bolstered players. I posted a potential solution to this in an earlier thread on the same topic.

In short, a good solution would be to use the sum of the bolstered stats to define the amount of renown gained for killing them.

Then the newbie who dosent use the bolster mechanic to its potential (the "free kill") would give low renown while the experienced players using the bolster mechanic to its potential would give renown as per the difficuly of killing him as a result.

This way you extract "player skill" from the equation.

Win - win.
This might be fair, but I would strongly err on the side of all low level players not being "worth it" in the eyes of players already at R40. The current setup is a double deterrent, all low level players are worth a small amount, and occasionally you pick on the wrong lowbie who stomps you by using bolster to is limits. If that makes R40's change their mind a bit on who to target, that means less lowbies are getting destroyed while engaging in RvR, and are more likely to stick around until end game.
Image
[email protected] for exploits and cheaters.
grimnir.me Some old WAR blog

User avatar
Wam
Posts: 803

Re: Bolstering looks stupid now

Post#37 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:29 pm

wargrimnir wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:15 pm
Ugle wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:04 pm The only valid whine in ops post is the low renown gained for killing bolstered players. I posted a potential solution to this in an earlier thread on the same topic.

In short, a good solution would be to use the sum of the bolstered stats to define the amount of renown gained for killing them.

Then the newbie who dosent use the bolster mechanic to its potential (the "free kill") would give low renown while the experienced players using the bolster mechanic to its potential would give renown as per the difficuly of killing him as a result.

This way you extract "player skill" from the equation.

Win - win.
This might be fair, but I would strongly err on the side of all low level players not being "worth it" in the eyes of players already at R40. The current setup is a double deterrent, all low level players are worth a small amount, and occasionally you pick on the wrong lowbie who stomps you by using bolster to is limits. If that makes R40's change their mind a bit on who to target, that means less lowbies are getting destroyed while engaging in RvR, and are more likely to stick around until end game.
seems fair... can't have it both ways

lowbies need a incentive and encouragement to partake... remember they won't get as worthwhile loot from zone locks compared to higher levels, so renown is their reward for participating while not max level, they kinda have nothing to lose by playing aggressive ... (or they would be in dead t2/t3 for most the time under old system)

Higher levels get something to fight and minor reward instead of nothing as those players wouldn't be around under old system... so something is better than nothing. I think its Karma if you gank lowbies and then one turns around and kills you :lol: sounds a bit like sour grapes to complain about lowbies killing you in one off's... now if lowbie's in a premade was getting consistantly top kills in a zone and outkilling 6 man's like LOB and others :lol: then you could say bolster might need a tweak... but they don't so they are not OP.

On a warband level im not going to discriminate targets based on levels either... as a lvl 16 healer can rez, and they also add too mass.
Wamizzle Guild Leader [TUP]
Wamizzle Guild Leader [The Unlikely Plan]

User avatar
Ugle
Posts: 589

Re: Bolstering looks stupid now

Post#38 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:46 pm

Lost my initial reply due to ddos check on website so a shorter reply will have to do.

Its a double deterrent indeed, as there is no incentive for higher renown players to engage bolstered players, which in turn deterioate everybodies rvr experience by evading fights etc.

@wam: Comparing a half functioning system to a previous version of the game (pre t2-4 merge) in order to justify not making the current system better makes little sense.
inactive

Ads
User avatar
Wam
Posts: 803

Re: Bolstering looks stupid now

Post#39 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:14 pm

Ugle wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:46 pm Lost my initial reply due to ddos check on website so a shorter reply will have to do.

Its a double deterrent indeed, as there is no incentive for higher renown players to engage bolstered players, which in turn deterioate everybodies rvr experience by evading fights etc.

@wam: Comparing a half functioning system to a previous version of the game (pre t2-4 merge) in order to justify not making the current system better makes little sense.
Okay but how much do you think lowbies should be worth? what medals do you think they should drop? I just said current system is better than older system so that is progress or people want daily chaos wastes 5 days in a row or KV 5 days in a row or 50 vs 50 in primetime eu :twisted: how do you think it can be even better? My point of view is I think more from population view more than renown specific per a kill point of view. What base values per a minimum kill? and what maximum values? and how often / diminishing returns?

You see this can go down a road that is slightly open to exploitation and abuse if they are worth too much, that is why I guess they do things on the side of caution because they know what playerbase is like and have banned/wiped people before in the past for similar things... because the boundaries/temptation of easy significant gains and think they can get away with it /kill trading /feeding etc... now if they lowered the limit and effort required for the one party to do the kill trading... then you see making a alt account getting to lvl 16 isn't massive time consuming or challenge. Look also from their point of view, so it's a bit of a grey area and not clear cut as you might think.

Also the fight evading part, is sadly part of the game... it's a shame but it is what it is, like realm's conceding zone's and not going to defend properly, or come back and poke even though they have numbers but rather afk / sit on bo and let enemy lock zone increasing their chance of reward... or just sit in camp to screw with enemy and troll defend by not defending. Passive gameplay is rewarded more than pro active gameplay that is another issue in itself. It use to be entirely the opposite way (which wasnt perfect either) but its encouraged bad habits like BO sitting and not fighting tooth and nail over every keep and more so on order side. Lost Count the amount of times ive seen 30 order guys afk on BO near their warcamp while keep is under attack and needs defenders, none of these react or care... because they get rewarded for sitting on bo, letting someone else do it, and if destro take they get a bag roll. Meanwhile if they was at keep, the defense would hold with a extra 30 guys, it would be even numbers but nope, player mentality for easy gains, which relates back to kill trading... players look for maximum returns without fighting resistance. Its not a big step from afk on bo.
Wamizzle Guild Leader [TUP]
Wamizzle Guild Leader [The Unlikely Plan]

User avatar
roadkillrobin
Posts: 2773

Re: Bolstering looks stupid now

Post#40 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:25 pm

You guys should been around when PVP servers were a thing.
No bolsters, always RVR flagged, 20 lvls wide tiers.
Image

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Ahrefs [Bot], BluIzLucky, Loctar, tfargh and 34 guests