WE/WH and their ROLE in ORvR

[Coma]

A few premises that I think are necessary to start this discussion:

1) Balance in RoR is focuse on "organized large groups".. at least this is a recurring phrase that is often posted in the balance section as a counter argument when people lament that a change would greatly affect solo/pug/smallscale (and just to be clear I'm totally fine with this).

2) The recent WE/WH chancge proposal were denied with the motivation (not discussing the validity of the proposals or the fact that they were refused... only using the MOTIVATION for the refusal as BASE for this discussion);

WE/WH do have a role in RvR. Not everything is about warbands/AoE/bombing.

3) WE/WH are currently the "least wanted" class in both Organized and Pug WB, to the point that is not really rare to see phrases such as "Don't waste a guard on WE/WH" or "WE/WH don't count as DPS".



Now... with those 3 point as premises my question is:

What is the ROLE of WE/WH in organized WB?

It obviously in not ganking solo players... since that has nothing to do with WB play.
Devoting a WB slot to scouting is also pretty useless since most info about enemy position actualy do come from "region chat".
DPS as stated above is not considered one of their strong point (yes they do have strong ST damage... but other MDPS also have it whitout being as glassy as WE/WH and also offering potential AoE damage or utilitis).
Group utilities can also be taken out wince WE/WH have ABSOLUTELY NO GROUP UTILITY or skill that sinergize with other classes.

So once again I propose this question:

What is the ROLE of WE/WH in organized WB?

And Aim it at the staff (that based on the above mentioned quote should actualy have an idea about it) and to those WB leader that actualy CHOSE to include a WE/WH in their wb for any reason behind "filling empty slots".



NOTE: while I do understand that this post may SEEM to be sarcastic or a retaliation for a denied proposal, I'd like to clearify that it is NOT my intention at all... I truly want to know what the Saff and the WB leaders think about WE/WH and their ROLE in WBs so that I can grasp what I've been missing all this time... I don't have an ego so developed to lead me to think that I'm the best player around... so learning something new is always a good thing and I've absolutely no problem in admitting that there are still many thing I don't know about ^^

[Krima]

Their Role in RvR is to solo play ! go stealth inside enemy keep and have fun.
Sure you can setup a grp and play with a WE, however grp utility MARA>CHOPPA>.....WE

[ragafury]

You can bring one we to a warband.
However this slot is considered the support slot.
Support slot is shared by magus, dps zealot, 2hd chosen, 2hd BG etc. basically all niche classes and specs which have something unique supportish.
You eliminate key targets and scout. That's your job.

Since magus and dps zealot bring far more in terms of melting and play making WEs are easily replaced by those and scouting reports of /1 /2 /tier4.

In orvr (since you mix orvr and wb):
You solo roam and gank loners, duoers, left behinds etc.
can also run in a 6 man as DPS.

If you want to play in a competitive warband you should may consider reroll towards atm. a Marauder. Perhaps choppa once it gets some direly needed love.

[Asherdoom]

WE an WH are hard to balance because if you buff em too much they overshadow the mara/choppa role in a warband. in theory theoy should be "hit and run" class against enemy healer. PPl say that classes are balanced on ope rnr because they dont want to admit that game is not balanced at all in any scale. My guild for example on destro side got a good WE running around with my BG guarding her. in such situation we can do something in roaming warband, yet WE should be more used in open rvr to ambush enemy supply lines.

2) The recent WE/WH chancge proposal were denied with the motivation (not discussing the validity of the proposals or the fact that they were refused... only using the MOTIVATION for the refusal as BASE for this discussion);

Penril wrote:
WE/WH do have a role in RvR. Not everything is about warbands/AoE/bombing.

well personally i ca state this to for Sorceress for example. Better have a SH rather than babysitting a sorceress who is killing herself to cast a spell and dont even have heal debuff. Thats nother point.
the problem with WE is class concept. they were created as ambushers, scouts for the destro faction, yet are none of that and all of that at same times. thats wh i say we need to balance 1v1 aspect of the game otherwise classes like WE and WH will be always the 3rd choice in a warband.

[Haojin]

RvR isn't about AoE warband, you can be very effective as solo-6 man-12 man. Just stay away from zerg warbands, there is nothing you can do. Period.

WE/WH got their roles in warbands if it's instance based and WE/WH is very good for it.

4 ST 4 AoE > 8 AoE
2 ST 6 AoE > 8 AoE

[diedrake]

All i gotta say is.... Grp up with other wh/we's. The other weekend had a grp of what 6 including csi, that was a really really deadly grp. The class isnt designed for aoe wbs but really really effective for surgical strikes.

The we/wh grps could also effectivly scout for the aoe wbs and could be really effective on keep takes by bypassing and kill enemy on the wall.

[normanis]

if vitriolic judgment will make as main stance (no need enemy beck to triger it) as finisher than order have his own aoe morale leecher. and i think its very good for zerg play. for example dragon gun. destro already have mara aoe morale leecher and its work prety good.

[Aurandilaz]

The role of WE/WH in a warband is to not be in a warband. It's a ST class with beyond pathetic AoE output. No matter how good your ST pressure is, it will not matter in large fights. (RvR campaign is all about large fights, you can do 6v6 in scs or 12v12 in scs, in the lakes its 200vs200)
There is about zero reason for an organized warband to include a WE/WH as one of the Dps.

Sure, you can go play WE/WH in smallscale, yet then you should ask yourself why bring a WE when you can have Mara/Mara or Mara/Choppa instead.
Similarly the risk/reward ratio is messed up when comparing WL and WH. WL has the better fast burst, better mobility, yet WH is the one with light armour, but they, at least they got cool hats and can sneak around.


All that would be "band-aid fixed" with giving Slice/Razor 9 target limit with tactic (even if with -30 to -50% base damage[idea; decrease ability dmg by -5% with each target hit, meaning -45% when landing on all 9 targets]). OYK is decent, though has 10 sec CD meaning you might get it out twice in a fight before its over, Dragon Gun would need some real rework to become useful.

[Coma]

it seem like the main point didn't get across... (except ragafury and Aurandilaz posts ^^')

so let me restate it:

balance in RoR is centered around "ORGANIZED LARGE GROUPS" and not solo/small scale... this is a statament that come directly from the staff and has been used as an argument against those lamenting that a specific change would have affected the small scale/solo ...

WE/WH have a role in ORvR ... this too is a statament from the staff... and has been used as a reason to deny changes to WE/WH that were aimed to improve their usefulness in "ORGANIZED LARGE GROUPS"

now if you make 1+1 than WE/WH SHOULD ALREADY HAVE a role in organized large group...

and this is WHAT I'm looking for...

I already know that WE/WH can perform well in solo ganking... I know that 2 WE can solo kill any SINLGE player without many problem... I'm also consious of the fact that in SMALL SCALE ST have more relevance than AoE/group utility.

What I don't know is what ROLE should a WE/WH cover in ORGANIZED LARGE GROUPS.

Since this role SHOULD exist (based on the aforemantioned quote) and since it is obviously NOT that of a main DPS, than I would like to know what WE/WH should aim if they WANT to play in WB.
And, if WE/WH situation still have to be improved, KNOWING what their ROLE is would point out the DIRECTION for the improvement (again IF improvement are necessary... but I have problem finding something to improve if I don't know what a class should actualy do ^^').

This is what this topic is aiming for... UNDERSTAINDING what the situation now is like is necessary to understand what one is doing wrong ^^

PS: the reason why I did not simply aimed this post to the staff but also inclueded the comunity is that if this ROLE actualy exist, than obviously there should be some ORGANIZED WB out there that is making use of it ^^... still until now the only comment from people taking part in organized WB are that WE/WH are either useless or have a demi-role (what ragafury pointed out is not really a role but rather a "filling") that can better be covered by other classes

[peterthepan3]

On the contrary, balance in RoR revolves around anything from 6v6/Group play up to 24v24 (at least that is what I believe the team's official stance on balance is, Penril can correct this if I'm in the wrong).