Fallenkezef wrote:I don't understand the nastiness in all this. Sure, we all have a fave class and wish it was better/easier. I wish my slayer had an ability to swing an axe on a chain at SH's and pull them to me so the little green gits stop kiting me.
Balance is a hard thing and people forget that the devs are working for free, in their spare time on an abandoned game. In every game there is a class or two that just don't fit in conventional meta and you have to work around that and find where it fits.
Several people have suggested how the WH/WE work and work well but there is no point trying to get the square peg into the regular WB round hole.
It's not about buffing a class, it's a more broader view.
It's not so funny being kicked by a WB, with the leader telling you: "I'm sorry, I need to make room for other classes" meaning that you are useless, except for filling spots if nothing else is available. Other leaders don't even bother telling you, this explains a lot.
OP is not asking for pull or charge or whatever, but if this is right or intended.
I ran a retribution spec Pally in wow burning crusade, I remember being kicked in favour of a "proper" dps and how it feels.
WH/WE is a hard class to bslance as it's not built for mass combat but st wetwork
Watch the video. It shows an enemy UI that has 1 healer in each group. Also, at the beginning you can see 3 DoKs and 1 shaman. Still. 20 WEs is a lot...
Fallenkezef wrote:WH/WE is a hard class to bslance as it's not built for mass combat but st wetwork
That is why I'm confused. They are not build for mass combat when the game is mostly mass combat. Like I said, playing WH/WE in scenarios is fun, but any other DPS class can do what they do and it is the same with any other recommendations on how to play with them, any other class can do what they do. Their roles should be required in a WB to kill key targets like healers and m/rdps, but they can't even do that. They appear and they're dead. They can't even "burst" the target. Another thing I don't understand is their armor type. BW use robes and a WP use medium robes. A SW use light armor, why WH doesn't use medium armor? That "squishyness" combined with their null mobility and the fact that healers "outheal" the damage make their "assassin" role improbable of doing just that: Assassinate.
But oh well, It will never be changed and if it is, it certainly will not be to please my tastes. I'll need to find another class to play =[
WH/WE were originally the only mdps classes that could bypass postern doors. No other mdps class was able to do this.
Old keep mechanic.
Attacker gained morale via hitting the door.
Defender's gain morale by being in the keep and the door being hit.
At keeps it was easy access to morale gain for the defender and attacker. Keep assault/defense is all about morale bombs/defensive morale cycle's and the keep attacker/keep defender trying to screw over the opposition's morale bombs and defensive morale cycle's.
How do you screw over the opposition's morale bombs and defensive morale cycle's? Death is the best morale drain. ST damage can cause individual death.
Teams of WH's/WE's could have been sent onto the ramparts to kill key specific morale bomb components to dampen the morale bombs being thrown at your keep assaulting warband. Team's of WH's/WE's could have been sent onto the ramparts to kill key specific defensive morale cycle components right before the door goes down to break the shield that the defensive morale cycle provides.
You used to be able to make a mean rampart assault group which you can't now because you can't lifetap the door. Lifetap healing does not require Line of sight. You could have lifetap healer's healing your WH's/WE's on the ramparts along with direct healing healer's.
When you assassinated the targets or if things are getting too crazy on the ramparts you just bounce off the ramparts into the safety of your assaulting warband.
A optimized warband created to roam will look different then a optimized warband created for a keep defense or keep offense. There are 3 main phases to the ORvR which are Roam, Keep offense, and Keep defense.
Last edited by footpatrol2 on Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
WH/WE were originally the only mdps classes that could bypass postern doors. No other mdps class was able to do this.
Old keep mechanic.
Attacker gained morale via hitting the door.
Defender's gain morale by being in the keep and the door being hit.
At keeps it was easy access to morale gain for the defender and attacker. Keep assault/defense is all about morale bombs/defensive morale cycle's and the keep attacker/keep defender trying to screw over the opposition's morale bombs and defensive morale cycle's.
How do you screw over the opposition's morale bombs and defensive morale cycle's? Death is the best morale drain. ST damage can cause individual death.
Spoiler:
Teams of WH's/WE's could have been sent onto the ramparts to kill key specific morale bomb components to dampen the morale bombs being thrown at you, when you were attacking. Team's of WH's/WE's could have been sent onto the ramparts to kill key specific defensive morale cycle components right before the door goes down to break the shield that the defensive morale cycle provides.
You used to be able to make a mean rampart assault group which you can't now because you can't lifetap the door. Lifetap healing does not require Line of sight. You could have lifetap healer's healing your WH's/WE's on the ramparts along with direct healing healer's.
When you assassinated the targets or if things are getting too crazy on the ramparts you just bounce off the ramparts into the safety of your assaulting warband
.
Sadly, I have never played much WAR on live servers, but this sounds so much more fun than what I see now at keeps as a WE or other Melee...
I am so fed up with this Ranged + Healer spoiling mechanics at Keeps (yes some tanks are needed too).
But as Melee it is trashtier BORING, thats why I run around solo and gank soloers or small groups (if there are other gankers around, we often will 4-5 ppl as 2 roamers). This is much more fun than this bullshit in keeps. Getting killed in a Keep away from the zerg = 5 minutes traveltime because no healer would ever leave their pack in PuGs.
But I also dont see it much more fun in Premades. Sure, there you have heal, but for me this massfights are pretty boring, but hey, I understand... Those MAgus/BW etc want to have there bonertime with getting 10 Killingblows at once with Fiery Blast and all their tools.
I whish this fights would be more like your "version" in the comment. Sounds much more fun, than 20 minutes without any rewards (haha 15 Renown for someone who got killed 20 times lol...)
This is surely melee biased, but thats how I feel about this skillless masszerging at keeps. I am happy If I get a Moral 2 because morale 3 will never see the day of light before I am dead (or its needed because I have to use Parry M1)
WH/WE were originally the only mdps classes that could bypass postern doors. No other mdps class was able to do this.
Old keep mechanic.
Attacker gained morale via hitting the door.
Defender's gain morale by being in the keep and the door being hit.
At keeps it was easy access to morale gain for the defender and attacker. Keep assault/defense is all about morale bombs/defensive morale cycle's and the keep attacker/keep defender trying to screw over the opposition's morale bombs and defensive morale cycle's.
How do you screw over the opposition's morale bombs and defensive morale cycle's? Death is the best morale drain. ST damage can cause individual death.
Spoiler:
Teams of WH's/WE's could have been sent onto the ramparts to kill key specific morale bomb components to dampen the morale bombs being thrown at you, when you were attacking. Team's of WH's/WE's could have been sent onto the ramparts to kill key specific defensive morale cycle components right before the door goes down to break the shield that the defensive morale cycle provides.
You used to be able to make a mean rampart assault group which you can't now because you can't lifetap the door. Lifetap healing does not require Line of sight. You could have lifetap healer's healing your WH's/WE's on the ramparts along with direct healing healer's.
When you assassinated the targets or if things are getting too crazy on the ramparts you just bounce off the ramparts into the safety of your assaulting warband.
Sadly, I have never played much WAR on live servers, but this sounds so much more fun than what I see now at keeps as a WE or other Melee...
I am so fed up with this Ranged + Healer spoiling mechanics at Keeps (yes some tanks are needed too).
But as Melee it is trashtier BORING, thats why I run around solo and gank soloers or small groups (if there are other gankers around, we often will 4-5 ppl as 2 roamers). This is much more fun than this bullshit in keeps. Getting killed in a Keep away from the zerg = 5 minutes traveltime because no healer would ever leave their pack in PuGs.
But I also dont see it much more fun in Premades. Sure, there you have heal, but for me this massfights are pretty boring, but hey, I understand... Those MAgus/BW etc want to have there bonertime with getting 10 Killingblows at once with Fiery Blast and all their tools.
I whish this fights would be more like your "version" in the comment. Sounds much more fun, than 20 minutes without any rewards (haha 15 Renown for someone who got killed 20 times lol...)
This is surely melee biased, but thats how I feel about this skillless masszerging at keeps. I am happy If I get a Moral 2 because morale 3 will never see the day of light before I am dead (or its needed because I have to use Parry M1)
Speaking of which, I had this idea for a while but was hesitant to post it since it could change keep fights quite a bit. But it's similar to what was written there, so:
What if Witch Elf/Witch Hunter had the ability to share their Pick Lock (bypass postern) buff? Basically, if they have a defensive target that 1) is in the same party 2) within 10/20/30ft with line-of-sight (so it can't be done from the top of the wall to let others in, have to be outside at the door), their defensive target and the WE/WH both get the PL effect. To compensate for this and to avoid exploits, it doesn't work on other melee DPS (who have their own Pick Lock), only tanks/healers/ranged, and/or the 2min CD becomes 4min when used in such a fashion. So solo WE/WH or even parties with only WE/WH gain or lose nothing from this.
This would give WE/WH a specific role in keep fights since they'd be the only ones who can bring tanks and healers along with them into posterns to give that sneak attack more survival. It's important to note here that this is 1 tank/healer per Witch Elf/Witch Hunter so any groups getting into the keep this way would be at least half melee DPS, not to mention they'd need to find enough WEs/WHs for all their non-mDPS. At the extreme scales of multiple parties or even a warband, it would need fairly good coordination since the buff only lasts 10s. And, this would give melee DPS and tanks something to do even on the defending side while the gates are up: guard the posterns. Finally, I think it fits the design/theme of Witch Elf/Witch Hunter being the stealth class.
Apart from the gameplay changes, I don't know if this can be implemented at all, the same ability that all melee DPS have doing something different depending on the class of the user. But if it can, it may give a good reason for other classes to group up with WEs/WHs in RvR.
WH/WE were originally the only mdps classes that could bypass postern doors. No other mdps class was able to do this.
Old keep mechanic.
Attacker gained morale via hitting the door.
Defender's gain morale by being in the keep and the door being hit.
At keeps it was easy access to morale gain for the defender and attacker. Keep assault/defense is all about morale bombs/defensive morale cycle's and the keep attacker/keep defender trying to screw over the opposition's morale bombs and defensive morale cycle's.
How do you screw over the opposition's morale bombs and defensive morale cycle's? Death is the best morale drain. ST damage can cause individual death.
Spoiler:
Teams of WH's/WE's could have been sent onto the ramparts to kill key specific morale bomb components to dampen the morale bombs being thrown at you, when you were attacking. Team's of WH's/WE's could have been sent onto the ramparts to kill key specific defensive morale cycle components right before the door goes down to break the shield that the defensive morale cycle provides.
You used to be able to make a mean rampart assault group which you can't now because you can't lifetap the door. Lifetap healing does not require Line of sight. You could have lifetap healer's healing your WH's/WE's on the ramparts along with direct healing healer's.
When you assassinated the targets or if things are getting too crazy on the ramparts you just bounce off the ramparts into the safety of your assaulting warband.
Sadly, I have never played much WAR on live servers, but this sounds so much more fun than what I see now at keeps as a WE or other Melee...
I am so fed up with this Ranged + Healer spoiling mechanics at Keeps (yes some tanks are needed too).
But as Melee it is trashtier BORING, thats why I run around solo and gank soloers or small groups (if there are other gankers around, we often will 4-5 ppl as 2 roamers). This is much more fun than this bullshit in keeps. Getting killed in a Keep away from the zerg = 5 minutes traveltime because no healer would ever leave their pack in PuGs.
But I also dont see it much more fun in Premades. Sure, there you have heal, but for me this massfights are pretty boring, but hey, I understand... Those MAgus/BW etc want to have there bonertime with getting 10 Killingblows at once with Fiery Blast and all their tools.
I whish this fights would be more like your "version" in the comment. Sounds much more fun, than 20 minutes without any rewards (haha 15 Renown for someone who got killed 20 times lol...)
This is surely melee biased, but thats how I feel about this skillless masszerging at keeps. I am happy If I get a Moral 2 because morale 3 will never see the day of light before I am dead (or its needed because I have to use Parry M1)
Speaking of which, I had this idea for a while but was hesitant to post it since it could change keep fights quite a bit. But it's similar to what was written there, so:
What if Witch Elf/Witch Hunter had the ability to share their Pick Lock (bypass postern) buff? Basically, if they have a defensive target that 1) is in the same party 2) within 10/20/30ft with line-of-sight (so it can't be done from the top of the wall to let others in, have to be outside at the door), their defensive target and the WE/WH both get the PL effect. To compensate for this and to avoid exploits, it doesn't work on other melee DPS (who have their own Pick Lock), only tanks/healers/ranged, and/or the 2min CD becomes 4min when used in such a fashion. So solo WE/WH or even parties with only WE/WH gain or lose nothing from this.
This would give WE/WH a specific role in keep fights since they'd be the only ones who can bring tanks and healers along with them into posterns to give that sneak attack more survival. It's important to note here that this is 1 tank/healer per Witch Elf/Witch Hunter so any groups getting into the keep this way would be at least half melee DPS, not to mention they'd need to find enough WEs/WHs for all their non-mDPS. At the extreme scales of multiple parties or even a warband, it would need fairly good coordination since the buff only lasts 10s. And, this would give melee DPS and tanks something to do even on the defending side while the gates are up: guard the posterns. Finally, I think it fits the design/theme of Witch Elf/Witch Hunter being the stealth class.
Apart from the gameplay changes, I don't know if this can be implemented at all, the same ability that all melee DPS have doing something different depending on the class of the user. But if it can, it may give a good reason for other classes to group up with WEs/WHs in RvR.[/quote][/spoiler]
I really like your Idea. For me this sounds like a nice try to test out. Would also convince me to hang around at a keep. But as it is right now, its a waste of time and nerves to hang around a keep as WE. (Unless you are a top notch 6 man roaming premade RR70+...)
WH/WE were originally the only mdps classes that could bypass postern doors. No other mdps class was able to do this.
Old keep mechanic.
Attacker gained morale via hitting the door.
Defender's gain morale by being in the keep and the door being hit.
At keeps it was easy access to morale gain for the defender and attacker. Keep assault/defense is all about morale bombs/defensive morale cycle's and the keep attacker/keep defender trying to screw over the opposition's morale bombs and defensive morale cycle's.
How do you screw over the opposition's morale bombs and defensive morale cycle's? Death is the best morale drain. ST damage can cause individual death.
Teams of WH's/WE's could have been sent onto the ramparts to kill key specific morale bomb components to dampen the morale bombs being thrown at your keep assaulting warband. Team's of WH's/WE's could have been sent onto the ramparts to kill key specific defensive morale cycle components right before the door goes down to break the shield that the defensive morale cycle provides.
You used to be able to make a mean rampart assault group which you can't now because you can't lifetap the door. Lifetap healing does not require Line of sight. You could have lifetap healer's healing your WH's/WE's on the ramparts along with direct healing healer's.
When you assassinated the targets or if things are getting too crazy on the ramparts you just bounce off the ramparts into the safety of your assaulting warband.
A optimized warband created to roam will look different then a optimized warband created for a keep defense or keep offense. There are 3 main phases to the ORvR which are Roam, Keep offense, and Keep defense.
WE/WH assasinate certain targets at keep with bypassing postern ? When that happened mate ? I only played WE/BO like 5 years on live on Karak Eight Peaks / Karak Norn / Azgal and never saw that a WE/WH got such a crucial role at keeps. It was always ganking scrubs and slackers, nothing else.
I fart that solo unguarded/unhealed WE/WH's mouth if he dare to touch me, lol.
