Revolution

[Buran]

Because let's face it; WAR/RoR was and is a game that lived by the number of people that played it. You cannot just listen to the min-maxers and elite pro gamers if the goal is to have a sustainable player base. If there are not enough people in a PvP game, the PvP just dies, and with it the game. In fact one should be very careful while listening to the hardcore gamers if you want to survive as a PvP game, because what they want will usually scare away the majority of the "normal" players.

Bingo!!! Yes, WAR/RoR is about big numbers of players! This is the main idea and main Feature of this game! BUT:
1. Players are looking for where easier. They want FUN, but they can not get it without work. The fun means job here. That's why players denying work often do not like zerg and hardcore players. "No pains, no gains."
2. The future. Every player wants to be necessary. And not all of us are good individually or as organizers, but it was the image of the future that helped us to find our role earlier. The smaller the community, the less such roles as a whole.
3. "And it will pass"

[peterthepan3]

Because let's face it; WAR/RoR was and is a game that lived by the number of people that played it. You cannot just listen to the min-maxers and elite pro gamers if the goal is to have a sustainable player base. If there are not enough people in a PvP game, the PvP just dies, and with it the game. In fact one should be very careful while listening to the hardcore gamers if you want to survive as a PvP game, because what they want will usually scare away the majority of the "normal" players.

Noone is suggesting otherwise, but to what extent does one give merit to the feedback from people who aren't playing the game 'properly' (be that solo/wrong spec/lack of skill) - simply to spite the feedback given from others who do? RoR has a very small population as it is right now - even with a lot of pandering to the 'normal' community! What else can be done?

Things like promoting group play, balancing all classes for PvP, rewarding skillbased PvP/tactical play scare people away? What do you define as a 'normal' player, because it seems (going by the aforementioned) it is someone who, perhaps, doesn't really belong in an MMO. No offence intended, just curious.

[ragafury]

Because let's face it; WAR/RoR was and is a game that lived by the number of people that played it. You cannot just listen to the min-maxers and elite pro gamers if the goal is to have a sustainable player base. If there are not enough people in a PvP game, the PvP just dies, and with it the game. In fact one should be very careful while listening to the hardcore gamers if you want to survive as a PvP game, because what they want will usually scare away the majority of the "normal" players.

Bingo!!! Yes, WAR/RoR is about big numbers of players! This is the main idea and main Feature of this game! BUT:
1. Players are looking for where easier. They want FUN, but they can not get it without work. The fun means job here. That's why players denying work often do not like zerg and hardcore players. "No pains, no gains."
2. The future. Every player wants to be necessary. And not all of us are good individually or as organizers, but it was the image of the future that helped us to find our role earlier. The smaller the community, the less such roles as a whole.
3. "And it will pass"

Don't even think Hao means this Thread as: "listen to me, I know which direction." or that he want to tune the game to "more hardcore". He only posted suggestions for an test enviroment. We are playing in a test enviroment. EVEN IF HAO had the intention to push the game in a specific direction the devs just wouldn't listen because it's there game and they do what they think is right.

It's not a discussion, flame, whine, endless wot thread. You can consider this thread as a "think-tank" spot....

It's a thread for suggestions in a testing enviroment since this is an Alpha server. You shall post suggestions for a test enviroment. Most of this suggestions will not even take places as Torque already stated because of time and human capital.

You are now discussing player numbers, for who shall this game be balanced and stuff. add more players is not a suggestion for an alpha server. This Thread is in full derailmode.

Besides that there are not much Hardcore players left. Phalanx in large scale RvR. That's it. Some people playing small scale, dunno who is still left since there is so much fluctuation. there are like 6 posts with suggestions on a 15 page topic. congratulations.
This Thread could be a huge inspiration when there were actual suggestions made. read page one again. no hurr durr discussions should take place. This could be, even if the suggestion is utterly stupid perhabs lite a fire. But I think it's again, to late now after 15 pages of wooot/flame/whine.

[Haojin]

thanks ragah for decoding my feelings right now. anyways i'll keep that my first post as a personal diary for future and again most of the test phases are just anti-thesis.

if you want to reach ideal solution for anything: thesis + anti thesis = synthesis
ofc %90 of the "test phases" can't be the future of the game [ OBVIOUSLY, MOST OF THEM ARE SO EXTREME AND STUPID] and it's so pointless to discuss "test phases" if they're pheasable or not. test something; get feedback and tweak the current system with the information from test phase and thats it

if i see vulnerable "test phases" in the correct thematic, will add it on my first post. have a good day.

[Dabbart]

Radical Idea: Every toon has access to every base ability/tactic/morale from lvl 1. Mastery points, tactic slots, Morale slots are gained as normal, 1 tactic slot and M1 at rank 10, 2slots and M2 at 20, etc.

The argument for disallowing players to start at rank 40 are(as I understand them):

Spoiler:

A, There has been a **** load of work done in the lower tiers/PQs/lakes/etc both in RoR and on Live. It is a bit insulting to say that none of their work should ever be seen or used. Plus, alot of it is quite cool.
B, Players require time to "learn" their class before achieving the higher ranks and begin fighting in T4 against highly experienced players.
C, It's the process of moving through the game that should be enjoyed. Not ignoring 3/4 of the game to rush to BiS.

I agree with the first, but the 2nd is imo bullshit logic. Certain classes have access to their main rotations early(Sorc/BW). Every healer is gimped w/o their group heal until rank 20. No tank can guard before rank 10. WH/WE simply don't play the same 1-39 as they do at 40 with their self punt. Same I imagine goes for WL/Mara w/o fetch or pull.

What precisely are you learning about your class in the first 20lvls, besides bad habits? How many players/toons are forcibly gimped simply due to lack of abilities? You see it in /ad /3 and /6 all the time. "Wait till you hit lvl XX. Then you'll have Y and that'll make your class actually work..." This doesn't even go into the entire viability of certain specs, such as melee healing prior to lvl 30 on a WP/DoK...

The downside? "new" players will get overwhelmed a little bit. But... That's why they start in T1 at lvl 1. Let them develop and learn the class. Let 'em try out the abilities long before they can unlock the Mastery's. Once they have a full understanding of the base abilities they will of started to unlock Tactics and Mastery points, thus advancing their "power" and amount of abilities/tactics per lvl.

Currently, if you want to try out a class, your best bet is to have a buddy that lets you play their toon for a day or 2. That, or dedicate a serious amount of hours to a class you don't know if you'll enjoy, before you even have the most basic of abilities to actually perform your role.

Spoiler:

I also think this would create a vastly different type of T1 and Midtier combat. For better or worse, who knows... But I believe you would see far more players willing to start fresh toons and actually play in the lower tiers... It doesn't entirely "fix" the issues of some people. It's still basically a needless grind imo. But at least let the players play their class while they grind...

[Aurandilaz]

True, the endgame is very brutal for some classes without certain badly needed abilities (WH/WE selfpunt which is their about only way to survive most bad situations)

So, why keep insisting that abilities only unlock slowly as you get closer to 40?
The slaughterhouse that is T4 begins at 31 and from that rank until you get to 40 (or quit from frustration from dying to higher ranked chars) you will be facing hard brutal times.

Idea; unlock all T4 abilities/tactics/morals at rank 31. Keeping it extra hard serves hardly any purpose on this small server with desperate need for more population.
Unlocking the 25 career mastery points only fully at rank 40 makes it hard too; you should be able to spend those 25 mastery points the moment you enter T4, so you can compete on an equal ground with the locals who already have mastered butchering people with less ranks and less renown ranks.
So how about: rank 11, first mastery point (1), rank 13 two more points (3), rank 15 two more points (5), rank 17 two more points (7), r19 two more (9), r21 (11), r23 (13), r25 (15), r27 (17), r28 (19), r29 (21), r30 (23), r31 (25 mastery points available in total)
[and possibly consider dropping the extra renown earned Mastery points from 40-50-60-70 to something like 30-40-50-60?]

Is there some specific need to keep it "extra hard" for lowbies entering T4? Is the plan to "make them learn how to play in T4 the hard and brutal way" or allow them into T4 where they can compete with the locals on somewhat less imbalanced ground?

[dansari]

Radical Idea: Every toon has access to every base ability/tactic/morale from lvl 1. Mastery points, tactic slots, Morale slots are gained as normal, 1 tactic slot and M1 at rank 10, 2slots and M2 at 20, etc.

This actually sounds really cool. If anything I think it will balance out some of the imbalances you see in T1 and mid tier, where shamans/AMs currently reign supreme. It would certainly be nice to give every class the tools they need to survive/the bread and butter skills right away, like giving all tanks guard at level 1. Some classes will still be stronger, yes, but I think it would do more good than harm. I'm all for giving every class all of their base abilities at level 1.

[Orcpacolypse]

Obviously the population is down. We can speculate all day long about the cause of that, though what people fail to do is identify the period in which this drop-off transpired. My guess is somewhere between t3 and the release of t4, maybe accelerating during t4. So what changed in that time?
In my own humble opinion the game matured, now you have to play with the big boys which means putting in the time and effort. You can mitigate the time and effort its take to gear up by forming groups. Some people are always going to have more success than others, its just natural. The cream of the player-base will always rise to the top and others will follow in due time. The problem always boils down to TIME. These games used to P2P, they are designed to balance progress that can be time consuming with a reward that justifies the time spent. The main ingredient that gets overlooked sometimes is FUN, is this process enjoyable?

You just have to imagine a scale that starts at vanilla WHO to the easymode version before 18th December 2013. Somewhere in there a compromise has to be made that keeps everyone happy. Find that and the population will start to grow again.

I know some of the hardcore players are staunchly opposed to catering to those filthy casuals (kinda one myself atm lol) but you guys are the commando units of the battlefield who love to be surrounded at all times by the enemy, the more the merrier. That said you should be actually be delighted to comprise if it results in fresh meat roaming the lakes.

I don't think major compromises need to be made, just small adjustments to suit everyone's tastes. I make that task sound easier than it is ofc : ]

Well that just some of my brain-droppings for what its worth.

[Toonman]

People want the experience that Live WAR provided and if you deviate too far from what people experienced on live, they aren't gonna stick around. The further you get from what Live provided, the less population remains. It's not rocket science and it's not a hard concept to understand.

[TenTonHammer]

People want the experience that Live WAR provided and if you deviate too far from what people experienced on live, they aren't gonna stick around. The further you get from what Live provided, the less population remains. It's not rocket science and it's not a hard concept to understand.

Live was a buggy, garbeled imbalanced mess, RoR is not and will not be a carbon copy of live

People will leave, when the client patcher comes out and suddenly KOTBS/Chosen are no longer brainless easy mode or Mara is no longer ez mode everything in 1 spec best mdps; if thats what the people here want, then they can go make their own AoR private server