Population

[Darosh]

when you realize you're never going to take it (unless you play 12hrs a day for an entire month) many either quit directly or play for fun for a while and then quit shorty after.

You make it sound like playing for fun is the slightest evil of two not enjoyable options. When gear is your sole motivation, you play the wrong game. Live T1 was free to play and very busy with people, who played there forever or just had twinks. They had no gear progression and rr was capped and still they kept playing.

Playing for fun never lasts long, you NEED something to look forward to. I'm not one of those players that is playing only for gear (i'm the opposite of that, tbh) but after a while of not progressing my characters the game simply stopped being fun for me because i didn't have incentive to play (not going to farm 12hrs a day for a month for a set, sorry my time is better spent elsewhere at that point)

Progression can be found in groupplay aswell, min/max'ing the composition and trying diffrent approaches.

[anarchypark]

...

how long did it take to farm anni for you?
what if it was designed for 6months to full conq, just quit free alpha game?

grp play already have better reward than pug/solo. community didn't realize it yet or refuse to join elitist.
punish them for being casual?
IMO more casual grp play is answer.

You really want BiS gears yet you want to group with only elite guild, friends.
which one is bigger goal? BiS gears or happy guild grp?
sry you can't have both. it sux but that's how it is.
think about your choice of farming method.
i made a choice and took 'any means necessary' path to make grp, raised tolerance level( removed ignore lists )
and aimed for kill drop rolls and kill quests. luckly, it suits my playstyle well.
gold bag is competition, not my priority.
sometimes i can't make grp, end up solo entire campaign, sometimes duo, 3man. 6man is rare. still, i'm getting progress.
hope you find your way

[Nefarian78]

when you realize you're never going to take it (unless you play 12hrs a day for an entire month) many either quit directly or play for fun for a while and then quit shorty after.

You make it sound like playing for fun is the slightest evil of two not enjoyable options. When gear is your sole motivation, you play the wrong game. Live T1 was free to play and very busy with people, who played there forever or just had twinks. They had no gear progression and rr was capped and still they kept playing.

And you make it sound like playing in t4 is fun. I can be with a full warband coordinated but half the time I try to do RvR it isn't fun. Heck even today I have more fun alting in t1 than playing t4...

Also didn't you just prove his point? T1 was fun and people played without the far off "carrot"... So why have one in t4?

You can't argue both sides. If it's fun, no need for gear gap and carrot. If it's not fun, you need gear gap and carrot to keep people playing...

I actually think gear gap CAUSES peopl to not have fun. I have to catch myself many times in this because I'll do RvR, and get a top contr. Spot and not get a bag and get mad and feel like I wasted time. I never felt that way in t3 or t2 or t1.. because I didn't feel like I "got screwed" or am "missing out" on.something. I did it for the sheer sake of taking the zone.... gear grind distracts from the game and GIVES a false goal so when.people get it, they then think "what now"... If playing the game was the goal. You wouldn't see this issue....i don't remember as much attrition in t2 or t3... People leveled alts. Personally I feel discouraged to play alts because I don't have gear I want on my.main atm. In t2 and t3 I had all I wanted on.multiple toons and was willing to play whatever for the sake of playing...

That's not the gear gap that makes it unfun. it's the disgusting rng there when capping the zone, dunno why it's still in the game and why the Devs defend it. It's the worst thing it can happen to anyone...wait 6hrs to cap the zone just to be rewarded with absolutely nothing. i'd prefer everyone receives some kind of token like Ruin and then you use that token/tokens to buy a piece of gear. Different tokens with different value based on contribution. This way the RNG the devs seem to love so much it's still there but it's way less obnoxius than how it is right now

[Stickzy]

Population has dropped a lot yes.
Classic answer to that is: Summer time.

The amount of grind is insane to get conq. Some weeks ago i joined a guy called Glitters and hes group for orvr. I had 1 weekend off, and was able to play like 10-12 hours a day. I got 2x gold bags(1 empty ofc) and 1 blue. Normally I got like 2 hours i can play a few times a week and tbh not even close getting anything good. I wish there would be 1 set of medals only, like for example war crests. Fair chance for all of us to get good gear. anni cant compete with conq + bl mix.

[saupreusse]

You make it sound like playing for fun is the slightest evil of two not enjoyable options. When gear is your sole motivation, you play the wrong game. Live T1 was free to play and very busy with people, who played there forever or just had twinks. They had no gear progression and rr was capped and still they kept playing.

And you make it sound like playing in t4 is fun. I can be with a full warband coordinated but half the time I try to do RvR it isn't fun. Heck even today I have more fun alting in t1 than playing t4...

Also didn't you just prove his point? T1 was fun and people played without the far off "carrot"... So why have one in t4?

You can't argue both sides. If it's fun, no need for gear gap and carrot. If it's not fun, you need gear gap and carrot to keep people playing...

I actually think gear gap CAUSES peopl to not have fun. I have to catch myself many times in this because I'll do RvR, and get a top contr. Spot and not get a bag and get mad and feel like I wasted time. I never felt that way in t3 or t2 or t1.. because I didn't feel like I "got screwed" or am "missing out" on.something. I did it for the sheer sake of taking the zone.... gear grind distracts from the game and GIVES a false goal so when.people get it, they then think "what now"... If playing the game was the goal. You wouldn't see this issue....i don't remember as much attrition in t2 or t3... People leveled alts. Personally I feel discouraged to play alts because I don't have gear I want on my.main atm. In t2 and t3 I had all I wanted on.multiple toons and was willing to play whatever for the sake of playing...

That's not the gear gap that makes it unfun. it's the disgusting rng there when capping the zone, dunno why it's still in the game and why the Devs defend it. It's the worst thing it can happen to anyone...wait 6hrs to cap the zone just to be rewarded with absolutely nothing. i'd prefer everyone receives some kind of token like Ruin and then you use that token/tokens to buy a piece of gear. Different tokens with different value based on contribution. This way the RNG the devs seem to love so much it's still there but it's way less obnoxius than how it is right now

We don't. but the currency stuff is out of reach atm. it has also to do with how the loot system works.

[Darosh]

That's not the gear gap that makes it unfun. it's the disgusting rng there when capping the zone, dunno why it's still in the game and why the Devs defend it. It's the worst thing it can happen to anyone...wait 6hrs to cap the zone just to be rewarded with absolutely nothing. i'd prefer everyone receives some kind of token like Ruin and then you use that token/tokens to buy a piece of gear. Different tokens with different value based on contribution. This way the RNG the devs seem to love so much it's still there but it's way less obnoxius than how it is right now

I've stated my opinion about gear before and generally agree with the Dev's take on things, but what you pointed out - the RNG - holds true, imho.
Transparency and 'calculatable' progression (= with a definitive end in sight) > RNG - even tho' gear can be acquired via proper play in a reasonable amount of time; one doesn't depend on the lootrolls, RNG is incredible demoralizing.
I am pretty sure even the most draconic token system - any kind of 'bad luck' protection or any kind of metric to point at (e.g.: do x, definitely get y), really - could help to greatly alleviate the perception issue, whilst not impacting itemization or the time requirement; efforts necessary (= organization) to acquire gear.

[dansari]

So, basically the feeling is that:

1) the conq grind turns people away
2) pugs don't like getting stomped by premades
3) there's not much to do after you complete your BiS gear
4) there's no realm pride or feeling that you're dominating on all fronts or coordinating between tiers
5) something is missing to cater to premades for scs
6) the T4 rvr campaign isn't fun

I think that's the majority of the issues people are outlining that might play into the larger population discussion. I'll give my thoughts on each:

1) the conq grind. Yeah, honestly this should probably be tweaked. I personally know people who would come back to the game if it wasn't so very difficult to obtain conq gear (many, many times has it been said in our guild comm, "I'm almost to my first conq piece... yay..."). I think the medallion quests have helped, but they don't completely solve the larger problem. The balance is figuring out what should be difficult to obtain vs unrealistic. I wouldn't change the way that bags are delivered, I would just decrease the cost of the gear by about 35-40%. This puts the chest at 252-273 and the belt at 57-62 medallions to purchase.

2) pug v premade. Solo queuers (a more correct term than "pug" to identify people who are not playing in a pre-determined group, I think) absolutely hate the premades that join their scenarios. Partly I think this is because losing a scenario grants you practically nothing. That's not to hate on premades -- I prefer to run them all the time as guildies having fun -- but demoralizing the enemy "solo queuers" likely correlates to a lower population. Again, finding balance here is tough because while I agree that we don't want to center the game around solo queuers, I think they serve an important role in keeping the game alive. So, increasing the rewards (both emblem and renown gained) in a scenario for the losing party is probably in order. I think this is a better solution than restricting groups to group scenarios or increasing the number of "pug" scenarios, especially for NA.

3) nothing after BiS. Sure, this is probably true. Combined with summer time, I know Norkalli isn't playing much because he's rr80, has everything he wants, and wants to charm California girls with his big mutation. This is going to just be a work in progress as the devs progress with fixing/adding things to the game. But, others have pointed out that people played T3 even being max rr with full twinked gear. No real solution except to wait for new content to be added.

4) realm pride. This could be cool -- maybe an ongoing event (or test it for two weeks to see how it would work). I'm wary of buffing/debuffing based on the pairings being locked, so maybe instead you implement a +10% rr/inf gained for all players of one realm for an hour or two if they lock two of the three tiers of one pairing (or all three tiers to make it harder), or maybe you give all players of the realm an "elf token of awesomeness" for locking all of the elf pairings, and X number of tokens gives you the ability to purchase cosmetic items. IDK -- again this is based on dev progression for fixing/adding content, and they already have priorities.

5) premade scs. This is tough. From personal experience, I'm not going to attempt to play against the same premade over and over again if I lose 2-3 times in a row. So, rewarding a group with more emblems if they win isn't necessarily going to fix this problem. What could be cool is if you had the opportunity for the whole scenario to roll on something like a genesis item, but not every scenario. Say you had a 25% or 33% chance for the 6v6 scenario to roll on a genesis piece (a blue bag from rvr), but it's completely rng. That way even the losing group gets a chance and continues to queue for scenarios, even though they might not win. The hope from this is that you would see more people queueing for scenarios in groups that might not have formed a group before and going up against different levels of teams, encouraging coordination and group play for the sake of better and tangible rewards that are sought after. Who knows if that's possible from a coding perspective, but it's a cool thought.

6) The T4 campaign isn't fun. Also pretty true, mainly stemming from: frustration with the RNG of bag rolls (which should be lessened with a decrease in conq cost), BO timers being outrageous in some cases, and taking forever to lock zones (especially after a keep is taken). Personally, I would prefer to see BO timers reduced to 2min claim and 6min lock max until the new rvr system is tweaked and released into T4. Additionally, I would prefer the keep to give you 15-20% in victory points, so that if you're sitting at 80-20 when you take the keep, you either immediately flip the zone or it only takes another 5-15 minutes (currently it can take upwards of 30-45 during NA evening). And finally, again depending on the coding complexity, I would prefer to see layers of contribution (as has been suggested before by others), meaning change the contribution from:
750, 700, 650, 600, 550, 500, 450, 400, 350 to
700, 700, 700, 550, 550, 550, 400, 400, 400

[th3gatekeeper]

We don't. but the currency stuff is out of reach atm. it has also to do with how the loot system works.

Well thats not quite true....

If you want either of the rewards, then do RvR and play the lottery.

So players are getting mixed messages. Either the current RNG method is preferred, or its not....

[th3gatekeeper]

So, basically the feeling is that:

1) the conq grind turns people away
2) pugs don't like getting stomped by premades
3) there's not much to do after you complete your BiS gear
4) there's no realm pride or feeling that you're dominating on all fronts or coordinating between tiers
5) something is missing to cater to premades for scs
6) the T4 rvr campaign isn't fun

I think that's the majority of the issues people are outlining that might play into the larger population discussion. I'll give my thoughts on each:

Correct. I would agree with all of these.

1) the conq grind.

Spoiler:

Yeah, honestly this should probably be tweaked. I personally know people who would come back to the game if it wasn't so very difficult to obtain conq gear (many, many times has it been said in our guild comm, "I'm almost to my first conq piece... yay..."). I think the medallion quests have helped, but they don't completely solve the larger problem. The balance is figuring out what should be difficult to obtain vs unrealistic. I wouldn't change the way that bags are delivered, I would just decrease the cost of the gear by about 35-40%. This puts the chest at 252-273 and the belt at 57-62 medallions to purchase.

I would largely agree with this. I gave up the Conq grind LONG ago. As a tank, as someone who doesnt get much death blows, nor am I RDPS, I am at a massive disadvantage in RVR to get Medallions. In order for me to have a chance, I have to run 6 man groups in RVR. Even then, most destro would just rather run more RDPS heavy groups with healers and not have any MDPS due to the "meta" of RVR being so RDPS heavy. This seems to be a much larger issue in T4 than I remember in T3 or lower and im not totally sure why. Anyways, I agree. Conq for many is deemed unattainable.

2) pug v premade.

Spoiler:

Solo queuers (a more correct term than "pug" to identify people who are not playing in a pre-determined group, I think) absolutely hate the premades that join their scenarios. Partly I think this is because losing a scenario grants you practically nothing. That's not to hate on premades -- I prefer to run them all the time as guildies having fun -- but demoralizing the enemy "solo queuers" likely correlates to a lower population. Again, finding balance here is tough because while I agree that we don't want to center the game around solo queuers, I think they serve an important role in keeping the game alive. So, increasing the rewards (both emblem and renown gained) in a scenario for the losing party is probably in order. I think this is a better solution than restricting groups to group scenarios or increasing the number of "pug" scenarios, especially for NA.

This IS a tough one. This is why I suggested trying to incentive the 6man SCs where they give MORE reward. It brings back to life (maybe) the competitive 6 man crew... I do think that you should be rewarded a minimum emblem amount even for losses in SCs however this may result in botting or AFKing, so maybe thats a bad idea. But this is why maps that have 3 "points" are best. Maps like nordenwatch, where even premades get caught up farming kills and will lose the "back cap" which allows the losing team to rack up 100+ points and get rewards. The maps that are single "battle objective" like points are really just a nightmare... Frankly... I can think of several maps that would do better if they were "converted" to 3 BO system maps. getting a competitive 6 man scene in SCs again, would get more premades out of normal SCs, making more room for the PUGs. Win-Win. But this only comes from giving incentive and supporting a healthy 6 man SC population.

3) nothing after BiS.

Spoiler:

Sure, this is probably true. Combined with summer time, I know Norkalli isn't playing much because he's rr80, has everything he wants, and wants to charm California girls with his big mutation. This is going to just be a work in progress as the devs progress with fixing/adding things to the game. But, others have pointed out that people played T3 even being max rr with full twinked gear. No real solution except to wait for new content to be added.

I think the "content" can be cosmetic, not "more power". This is the issue I see in ROR atm is everything is SUPER linear. There isnt a ton of choice and "gear sets" are a major contributor to this. If we had tons of options - not just "sets" players can collect gear, mix and match pieces, trying to min/max and test builds etc. Another issue with itemization is the value of "stats". You cant really escape your "archtype" by stacking different stats. Even a tank who wants to "DPS" if he were to stack like 300 more strength, it really isnt going to make him a "DPS" class. Itll give him maybe 20% more damage than his other tank counter parts, but at the loss of tankiness which isnt a good cost/benefit ratio. Since you cant really "leave" your archtype, this more or less pigeon holes classes into certain builds/gear setups etc. Anyways, itemiztaion and gear is a problem. I dont think we need more power creep, I think we need more options and IMO - I think stats themselves should matter much much more across the board. This also incentives people to use RR points on stats and not the LOL stuff like "crit stack".

4) realm pride.

Spoiler:

This could be cool -- maybe an ongoing event (or test it for two weeks to see how it would work). I'm wary of buffing/debuffing based on the pairings being locked, so maybe instead you implement a +10% rr/inf gained for all players of one realm for an hour or two if they lock two of the three tiers of one pairing (or all three tiers to make it harder), or maybe you give all players of the realm an "elf token of awesomeness" for locking all of the elf pairings, and X number of tokens gives you the ability to purchase cosmetic items. IDK -- again this is based on dev progression for fixing/adding content, and they already have priorities.

No comment here. I have realm pride. though I have classes on both sides I hate order and never Xrealm. I like preventing locks just for the sake of stopping order from locking... though do get a LITTLE salty due to lack of rewards for preventing a lock.

5) premade scs.

Spoiler:

This is tough. From personal experience, I'm not going to attempt to play against the same premade over and over again if I lose 2-3 times in a row. So, rewarding a group with more emblems if they win isn't necessarily going to fix this problem. What could be cool is if you had the opportunity for the whole scenario to roll on something like a genesis item, but not every scenario. Say you had a 25% or 33% chance for the 6v6 scenario to roll on a genesis piece (a blue bag from rvr), but it's completely rng. That way even the losing group gets a chance and continues to queue for scenarios, even though they might not win. The hope from this is that you would see more people queueing for scenarios in groups that might not have formed a group before and going up against different levels of teams, encouraging coordination and group play for the sake of better and tangible rewards that are sought after. Who knows if that's possible from a coding perspective, but it's a cool thought.

I agree - give incentive for 6 man SCs again. Maybe not Genisis as that might be too easy... IDK. I dont have a good solution for this, and I agree after losing 2-3x in a row you wont que... but ideally more emblem rewards = more groups queing = higher chance of getting a different group. IDK...

6) The T4 campaign isn't fun.

Spoiler:

Also pretty true, mainly stemming from: frustration with the RNG of bag rolls (which should be lessened with a decrease in conq cost), BO timers being outrageous in some cases, and taking forever to lock zones (especially after a keep is taken). Personally, I would prefer to see BO timers reduced to 2min claim and 6min lock max until the new rvr system is tweaked and released into T4. Additionally, I would prefer the keep to give you 15-20% in victory points, so that if you're sitting at 80-20 when you take the keep, you either immediately flip the zone or it only takes another 5-15 minutes (currently it can take upwards of 30-45 during NA evening). And finally, again depending on the coding complexity, I would prefer to see layers of contribution (as has been suggested before by others), meaning change the contribution from:
750, 700, 650, 600, 550, 500, 450, 400, 350 to
700, 700, 700, 550, 550, 550, 400, 400, 400

Completely agree. I have also advocated for a more "level" contribution system, maybe not at 700 as max, but definitely "leveling" out so that you dont feel you are "competing" directly with our own faction... thats the part that makes me salty is that you are not fighting the enemy, your essentially fighting your own faction... "quick cap before they get here" etc.

[Pixie126]

I find playing RvR difficult due to no one being on when I am. I am in NA. That's life. Unfortunately, I function best in a large group. I have never considered Warhammer to be a small skirmish game. Army vs army. I leveled in PVE. Because of this I am fairly "under armoured" when I go out into RvR. If there is nothing happening in RvR, then there is no progression for me. I play a tank (SM) and healer (AM). I need more people to play well. I am not tweaking about my gear. It would come eventually if I could play.....Vicious circle.