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old morale gain rates (mechanics)

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footpatrol2
Posts: 1093

old morale gain rates (mechanics)

Post#1 » Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:25 pm

Ok so I have been thinking on this.

It is important to try and understand original designer intent. Why?
Because 70% of what is in this game is still here and untouched.

This is really just a reference piece. I will be referencing this in different threads.

Base morale gain on the retail servers was 36 morale gain per sec for a full group.
Morale gain on the retail servers was 10 morale gain per sec if you were solo
Here on RoR it is 10 morale per sec for 90% of the situations if your in a group or solo.

If you valued fast morale gain rates you would run racial groups.
Racial morale gain tactic provided 5% additional morale gain per same race member.
6 same race members in the group = 30% additional morale gain.

Banners provided additional morale gain per banner. A guild could have up to 3 different banners running at one time. When planted a banner would provide morale gain for all guild members in the area.

I am unsure of the amount of morale gain per banner it only states its a significant amount.
We will assume banner gain rates of 15% per banner.


Racial group with banners at 15% per banner
So thats (racial group 30%) + (3 banners 45%) = 75% additional morale gain.

RoR morale gain rate 90% of the time
10 morale per sec

Retail morale gain rate with a full group
36 morale per sec

Mixed group retail with 3 banners at 15% per banner = 45%
((36 morale per sec * .45) + 36 = 52.2 morale per sec

Racial group 30% additional morale gain no banners
46.8 morale per sec

Racial group with banners at 15% per banner (3 banners)
((36 morale per sec )* 0.75) + 36 = 63 morale gain per sec

Time needed to reach morale 4. Morale 4 is 3600 morale.

RoR server morale gain
10 morale per sec = 360 sec's = 6 minutes

Mixed group retail server's morale gain with no banners
36 morale per sec = 100 sec's = 1 min 40 sec's

Mixed group retail servers morale gain with banners at 15% per banner = 45% additional morale gain
52.2 morale per sec = 68.9 sec's

Racial group without banners
46.8 morale per sec = 76 sec's

Racial group with banners at 15%
63 morale per sec = 57.14 sec's

This obviously doesn't account for any morale gain items that players may have.

The sweet spot with morale gain is 60 morale per sec. Why? At 60 morale gain per sec you will achieve your morale 4 in 60 sec's. The cooldown of the use of morale's is hard set at 60 sec's. At 60 morale gain per sec this will allow you to set up cycle's of morale 4's.
Genisaurus wrote:The morale bar is 3600 points.
You need 360, 720, 1800, and 3600 moral total for each level.
You generate 10 morale each second that you are in combat, base.
60 morale per sec provides:
Morale 1 within 6 sec's
Morale 2 within 12 sec's
Morale 3 within 30 sec's
Morale 4 within 60 sec's

To provide contrast on RoR server
Morale 1 within 36 sec's
Morale 2 within 72 sec's
Morale 3 within 180 sec's
Morale 4 within 360 sec's

I'll write more about this later.

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TenTonHammer
Posts: 3807

Re: old morale gain rates (mechanics)

Post#2 » Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:07 am

There needs to be less incentives in this game to reward cheap morale bombing


Not more
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roadkillrobin
Posts: 2773

Re: old morale gain rates (mechanics)

Post#3 » Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:15 am

Imo Morale damage is an issue that needs to be solved. It's a tricky thing coz it kinda keeps blobbing zergs in check in one way but it's also getting more powerful the bigger the zerg is.
It's also a problem in smaller scale were m1s, and m3s is used to kill off players nomather what defensive cooldowns or morales being used.

I've sugested before that single target morales should change to short self dmg buffs and AoE dmg morales changed to group dmg boosts on top of the effect it allready have and the morale dmg completly removed. And the case for some morales being competly changed into something else.
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footpatrol2
Posts: 1093

Re: old morale gain rates (mechanics)

Post#4 » Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:07 am

Imo morale damage is not a issue that needs to be solved.

It needs to be embraced by the community.

Morale damage is a balancing effect in this game.

Morales and how they synchronize are suppose to be endgame stuff. Dealing with morale's/morale bombs is endgame stuff. The placement of where the damaging morales are, are not randomly placed.

There used to be morale drains to a specific race upon player death. If your entire party slotted those morale's then it would probably create a more dramatic effect on draining morale. This is on top of ability morale drains.

I strongly disagree with your suggestion roadkillrobin.

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peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: old morale gain rates (mechanics)

Post#5 » Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:10 am

More reliance on undefendable morale abilities* that can be acquired in 60 secs, simply by merit of being in combat, should not be what we want imo if we want balanced pvp. Also worth mentioning that dest has easier access to fast morale gain as it is.

Being able to dispose of enemies almost instantly, because of abilities that have no counter, is bad. Morales are there to supplement pvp, not to be the be all and end all of said pvp.
Last edited by peterthepan3 on Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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roadkillrobin
Posts: 2773

Re: old morale gain rates (mechanics)

Post#6 » Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:26 am

Its not the M4 that are the problem Peter. Its the M1-3's, like Raze, Ruin and Destruction. No Escape, Defeaning Bellow etz thats the problem. Aswell as the single target ones like Sever Nerve etz in small scale. It way to EZ mode to kill with em with a cordinated drop and the recptians can do very little to fight it. Atm Order is the only side that can effectivly counter it properly with a Kotbs M4. Also, In larger scale if one side has started to build morales earlier they are gonna win the fights due to morale drops. I think Morales is a cool mechanic and all. But the unmitigrated dmg mechanic is just **** tbh. Thats the issue that needs to be dealt with. Not morale rates. But I understand, its easier to tweak and nerf the morale rates coz then you don't need to go in and tweak and test new Morale abillities. But that is what needs to be done tbh.
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peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: old morale gain rates (mechanics)

Post#7 » Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:29 am

Good points.
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footpatrol2
Posts: 1093

Re: old morale gain rates (mechanics)

Post#8 » Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:04 am

There are counter's peter. You just didn't have to focus on them or think about them and have grown used to that. They are unfamiliar. The correct morale gain rates opens up the meta to what is viable. More classes and spec's are able to come to the table with the correct morale gain rates. Classes could also be brought for what they bring from a morale perspective instead of just focusing on archtype/career morale's.

You guys also act like there is no cost to these damaging morale's. There is a cost. You have to give up the current meta morale's for potentially offensive morale's which reduces your groups survivability. Your group comp would look different and have different goals if you even cared about morale bombs. The spec's that you have grown accustomed too are now challenged because of the viability of spec specific morale 4's. Hybrid builds will always be viable. But 15 point builds to include the spec specific morale 4's also become viable. Are spec specific morale 4's viable right now?

You make different decisions then what you would do now. Your target priority will be different also. This would add more depth.

I've used this analogy before.
Both sides are baking a cake. It takes 60 sec's to finish baking your cake. Some cakes are baked faster then others and there are drawbacks to those builds. Your trying to sabotage the oppositions ability to bake a cake. You can choose to delay (morale drains) or strip away/interrupt (single target deaths) some of the oppositions cake. Once your cake is done your trying to throw that cake in the opponents face and actually hit him. Your opponent knows this. He can dodge or CC. You can miss with these morale bombs. You can also just straight up kill him before the cake is done.

Its also not just about morale bombs its also about defensive morale cycle's. There is morale bomb recovery built into this game also.

Please note also that it takes 3 banners to even get close to 60 morale gain per sec, mixed group or racial. Those banners bring 9 different effects to help tailor your group comp/guild. It costs 6 gold just to bring them out and you will likely lose a lot of standards even within a day. You have to carry around those banners. Your movement is leashed to those banners to gain morale. Banners have a area effect and don't effect you if you go outside their range.

Note: Planted standards tactics effected 36 players. The morale gain affects the guild. Banners have always been a part of this game. They are part of the overall balance. One of the reason's I suspect that group buff's don't act outside of group is to not diminish the impact of the importance of banners.

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peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: old morale gain rates (mechanics)

Post#9 » Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:10 am

Order has no real viable morale stripping potential, thus the counters you speak of (aside from situational awareness) seem to pertain more to one side. I'm all for breaking meta, and empathise with you on that, but believe that making morales even more significant than they already are will merely serve to promote less skill-based (and, instead, more automated) pvp. Just my 2 c.
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roadkillrobin
Posts: 2773

Re: old morale gain rates (mechanics)

Post#10 » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:00 am

peterthepan3 wrote:Order has no real viable morale stripping potential, thus the counters you speak of (aside from situational awareness) seem to pertain more to one side
Actually order have the single best Morale strip in the game and there's a warband group composition for it aswell that noone uses coz support groups in this Emu is earning really bad rewards compared to the normal cookiecutter dps groups.
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