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Formations

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footpatrol2
Posts: 1093

Formations

Post#1 » Sat Feb 25, 2017 7:07 am

Ok so this is setup for later talking points I want to conduct. I will reference this post later. This is mostly for newer players but some older players may benefit from reading this. I am just going too loosely talk about different group formations. This is very broad strokes and nuance details will not be discussed. If you want to add different formations or clarify stuff to this post go for it.

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T = tanks D = dps H = healer E = Enemy

Above is the traditional 2/2/2 setup in the kiting meta type formation. Everyone knows this formation. In this formation there is a backline and there is a frontline. The dps classes are being guarded by the tanks and the healers are left to fend for themselves. Ideally the tanks and dps classes should form a assist train and be a clump killing targets. Usually this is how players are introduced to the game through solo queing or classic 2/2/2 setups.

The healers use distance and kiting to protect themselves and call back the head of the group (tanks/dps) to come back and assist if there are problems. Healing classes that excel at this style of play are archmages and shamans as they have assisting kiting tools. This doesn't mean other healers don't do well in this formation. A problem with this formation is the distance created by the head falling back too help your healers. If a healer or backline Rdps class is being focused and requires a guard a tank needs to fall back and swap guard or you have to pull your entire frontline back to assist your healers to deal with the problem. There will be a time lapse depending on the distance from the tank to the needed guard swap. That time lapse is potentially death to your entire group. Good communication from backline to frontline is key. Almost all group comps work in this type of formation.

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Ok so above is a different formation. I call this formation a close formation. The closer players can get together the better. All of the members are clumped within 20ft of each other and move together as a team. Why? This makes guard swapping very very easy and you don't need to chase back to your healers if they are in trouble. If there is a large ranged threat your tanks can hold the line over your group and all members benefit from holding the line this is not the case in the kiting meta.

In this formation you are knowingly putting your healers/dps in harms way without a guard but with the intention of guard swapping. You are really leaning and trusting your tanks in this set up. Rotating challenge shout on high dps targets is crucial. This means that the healers/dps classes need to be tough enough to survive a few hits to signal a tank to guard swap. Usually in this formation the tanks are in charge of 2 different targets to guard. This is done to not overlap your guards on the same target. This brings in two different concepts. Dedicated guards and floated guards. Dedicated guards are on targets that are too squishy to survive without a guard and will instantly pop if they are focused. You almost never want to remove a guard from your dedicated guard. But there are situations where it is needed. Floated guards are on group members that are tough enough to take a few hits and signal that they need a guard swap. A bad group composition for this set up would be 2 tanks 2 Sorc's 2 Shaman's. You have 4 classes in that group comp that are squishy. That would not work for this type of formation and would be better off in a kiting formation.

There is no frontline or backline in the close formation setup. There are many classes that benefit from this type of setup. This formation takes some time to get used too because movement is more controlled. Someone has to drive the group. Also the habits learned in the kiting meta formation has to be unlearned. Healers that benefit from this style of play are RP/Zealots/WP/Dok's. Those healers can be built tough enough to benefit from this style of play. If your running classes that need to hard cast this is a good formation.

So you can also freely flow these two formations in and out of each other depending on your group composition. Some group composition types require one formation type to excel. Certain group compositions can't flow between these two formation types.

Which formation type is better? They are both equally good. Both have strengths and weaknesses. Both require a lot of communitcation to excel.

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anarchypark
Posts: 2073

Re: Formations

Post#2 » Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:51 am

and one big punt ruins everything
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Zanilos
Posts: 443

Re: Formations

Post#3 » Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:59 am

The way AOE picks its targets in this game you should never have dps in front of tanks. If the 8 tanks are in the front they will soak the AOE. If the DPS are at the front, the tank will take the base dmg + guard dmg.
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Haojin
Posts: 1062

Re: Formations

Post#4 » Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:26 pm

Hey, 2nd formation will work effectively if you have 3 tank, 2 melee healer dok, 1 mdps/1 dps dok.

We tried it for trolling and actually it's quite effective.
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roadkillrobin
Posts: 2773

Re: Formations

Post#5 » Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:33 pm

anarchypark wrote:and one big punt ruins everything
Yet AoE punts are considered complete trash by the community on this server and are good for nothing but to give immunities :D
(AoE punts are fundamental to break a hard frontline. A good Rift/Magnet or AoE punt is often the deciding factor on who wins a large scale engagement)
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blaqwar
Posts: 471

Re: Formations

Post#6 » Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:15 pm

Wouldn't a coordinate group just Quake/Heaven's Fury/Penance/Universal Confusion your entire group and pick it apart while tanks are unable to guard swap? Not to mention that your healers are extra vulnerable to any ranged CC.

The healers being far back isn't just to be able to pre-kite damage but CC as well, that includes spreading out to make it difficult to CC both at the same time.

It seems to me that the second "formation" is a liability in all situations and has very few actual benefits for a good small-scale team.

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Glorian
Posts: 4976

Re: Formations

Post#7 » Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:21 pm

anarchypark wrote:and one big punt ruins everything
Almost. But after the punt you go back into formation and have 25 secs immunity.

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footpatrol2
Posts: 1093

Re: Formations

Post#8 » Fri May 19, 2017 10:20 pm

Here is a example of close formation fighting.

https://youtu.be/8RkIWZj0_ps?t=803

Ideally I wanted the group comp to be 2 chosen's 2 magus's and 2 zealots for the chaos meatgrinder. We used what we had available at the time. The destro group shown has a serious ap feed and is making use of a defensive morale cycle/cycling challenge shouts blah blah. The serious AP feed allows the group to perform higher then normal. You can pump out higher healing, damage and perma HTL if you want to. If we had a 2nd dps (rift magus or dps aoe zealot w/heal debuff) that fight might have ended differently. If I was able to get the ideal group comp setup for this formation type it would be even nastier and harder to kill. That group comp is not amazing at roaming but can hold down a location like a boss and makes it painful for you to fight on their terms. Although the destro group isn't making a lot of movement the players are busy trying to maintain game effect cycle's. What I'm saying is the group is highly engaged and is very active and is not a boring play-style to participate in.

Please note how long the 5 man destro group lasts against 18 players. I'm the zealot.

On live I would run 2 6 man groups of close formation type fighting style to great effect but conducted with dwarves and not chaos. The goal for us was objective based pvp. We focused on winning the Sc's and being incredibly tough.

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Collateral
Posts: 1494

Re: Formations

Post#9 » Fri May 19, 2017 11:43 pm

footpatrol2 wrote:Here is a example of close formation fighting.

https://youtu.be/8RkIWZj0_ps?t=803

Ideally I wanted the group comp to be 2 chosen's 2 magus's and 2 zealots for the chaos meatgrinder. We used what we had available at the time. The destro group shown has a serious ap feed and is making use of a defensive morale cycle/cycling challenge shouts blah blah. The serious AP feed allows the group to perform higher then normal. You can pump out higher healing, damage and perma HTL if you want to. If we had a 2nd dps (rift magus or dps aoe zealot w/heal debuff) that fight might have ended differently. If I was able to get the ideal group comp setup for this formation type it would be even nastier and harder to kill. That group comp is not amazing at roaming but can hold down a location like a boss and makes it painful for you to fight on their terms. Although the destro group isn't making a lot of movement the players are busy trying to maintain game effect cycle's. What I'm saying is the group is highly engaged and is very active and is not a boring play-style to participate in.

Please note how long the 5 man destro group lasts against 18 players. I'm the zealot.

On live I would run 2 6 man groups of close formation type fighting style to great effect but conducted with dwarves and not chaos. The goal for us was objective based pvp. We focused on winning the Sc's and being incredibly tough.
That's very nice fighting against unorganized groups who can't make proper morale dumps and lack aoe dmg. But how long do you think you would last against an organized aoe wb that drops morales? I think you would die in 3 seconds, unless you have some kind of morale drain, which order could do well with kotbs rotations. With 2 groups though you could probably hold a chokepoint like this for some time.

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footpatrol2
Posts: 1093

Re: Formations

Post#10 » Sat May 20, 2017 12:24 am

I only ran that group for one day... I am just showcasing a play-style with that post. That group can get super tight. It was even the wrong group comp.

The fighting style can get brutal. If I can control the CC of my players and I'm running a predominately chaos faction warband. I'll keep your raze morale bomb away permanently with winds of insanity cycling zealots that are guarded. Winds isn't subject to immunities. I'll drain you with marauders.

The goal here isn't to get into a pissing contest with you collateral. The goal here is to expand your thinking. Look at the tools you have available. Re-think what you think is possible. I did that play-style for years with dwarves. I lightly tested it with chaos which wasn't even the correct group comp.

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