Shaman/Archmage sugestion

[roadkillrobin]

Whats would the toughts be on the following changes.

1: Make Greener n Cleaner/Cleansing Light a group cleanse by default and still work with the HoT tactic. The classes completly lacks on the grouphealing due to long cast times, and for the Shaman it's massive on the AP aswell. Any other healers can just pop up some group hot while they try to regain some AP/SE/RF.

2: Empowered Lore/Burst of Waaagh. These tactics are basicy not being used at all. I don't know anyone who do so.
Sugestion change: Mistress of the March/Sticky Feetz now cleanses one Curse/Ailment/Hex from any groupmember within 10 feet every 3 seconds.

Conclusion. If AM/Shaman can't be the best grouphealers like WP/DoK, or the best group dmg mitigration like Zealots/RP.
How about making em the best at keeping debuffs off.

[Penril]

No to 1. The game doesn't need another group cleanse. Although applying the HoT to all groupmates each time you cleanse someone... i could live with that. But no to group cleanse.

Maybe to 2. Still not sure if it would be a buff to rDPS groups (in that case, YES) or to melee trains (NO).

[Lileldys]

1 Group cleanse is bad enough, lets not have 2.

The way i see Shaman and AM is that they're both Burst Healers/Kiting Healers. Both have <25% health 40% increase, 20% hp save which help with burst healing. Issue is that WP can perform this sort-of with Divine Mend which has some crazy growths, and can just keep the group topped off with hp. And if a target drops lower than 30% they're probs dead anyway.

I suppose it's not a bad change, but do you really have the tactic slots available to be-able to slot this. Also 10ft from what? Center? Outer Edge i presume. Seems quite limited, esp when you generally use this to keep distance.

[peterthepan3]

I like 2, though I think it would only really serve friendly tanks/MDPS as no RDPS would want to be that close to the thick of battle just to get cleansed.

[gungnir08]

No to 1. The game doesn't need another group cleanse. Although applying the HoT to all groupmates each time you cleanse someone... i could live with that. But no to group cleanse.

Maybe to 2. Still not sure if it would be a buff to rDPS groups (in that case, YES) or to melee trains (NO).

The HoT, in its current form, stacks with itself and can crit. I can see some serious shenanigans with Whispering Wind and cleanse spamming for as many group HoTs as is possible for the duration of the buff, so perhaps even what you thought you could live with isn't a good idea here. The HoT would have to get nerfed to where it wouldn't stack for this to work.

And yes, the way it is now is how it was on the live servers.

[Penril]

I like 2, though I think it would only really serve friendly tanks/MDPS as no RDPS would want to be that close to the thick of battle just to get cleansed.

Well, the puddle is usually used to keep melee trains away from you (yeah yeah, you can also use it offensively if you are fighting against kiters and need help catching them). Let's say melee train managed to reach your backline and applied a snare. Drop the puddle on them and it immediately:

1) removes the snare from your ally, and
2) snares the enemy melee train

One thing to consider though is the effect these puddles would have on Magus. Engie is fine since Shaman can't cleanse him. But Magus would have 2 out of 3 healers being able to group-cleanse his DoTs.

@gungnir I forgot the HoT stacks. So yeah, definitely NO to 1.

[roadkillrobin]

They need to have multiple cleanseble debuffs on em to pull of the "Whipering Winds" Shenanigans you speak of. Green Cleaning and Isha's Encouragement only aplies hot effect if debuff is cleared. So it's alot of conditions to be met tbh. Debuffs, Cd Reducer and a tactic.

Lileldys: The problem is that both DoK/WP and Zealot/RP are much better kite healers due to their much lower cast times and survival. And with Divine Mend and Khaine's Invigorition WP and DoK are extremly bursty. Zealot/RP basicly have the same burst as Shaman/AM the times when 40% extra healing would save anyone so would spamming Flash if Choas or Grugni's Gift with tactics tbh.
And I used the text from Waves of Choas tactic, I asume they mean 10 feet away from the edges of the ritual.

AM and Shaman's completly lacks synnergy and have had their roles become obsolete by just better designed classes. I'm just trying to come up with sugestion that can make em unique and wanted in groups and warbands.

[gungnir08]

They need to have multiple cleanseble debuffs on em to pull of the "Whipering Winds" Shenanigans you speak of. Green Cleaning and Isha's Encouragement only aplies hot effect if debuff is cleared. So it's alot of conditions to be met tbh. Debuffs, Cd Reducer and a tactic.

Lileldys: The problem is that both DoK/WP and Zealot/RP are much better kite healers due to their much lower cast times and survival. And with Divine Mend and Khaine's Invigorition WP and DoK are extremly bursty. Zealot/RP basicly have the same burst as Shaman/AM the times when 40% extra healing would save anyone so would spamming Flash if Choas or Grugni's Gift with tactics tbh.
And I used the text from Waves of Choas tactic, I asume they mean 10 feet away from the edges of the ritual.

AM and Shaman's completly lacks synnergy and have had their roles become obsolete by just better designed classes. I'm just trying to come up with sugestion that can make em unique and wanted in groups and warbands.

My post was in response to Penril's proposal that Isha's Encouragement/Green Cleanin' be modified instead to apply the HoT to the AM's/Shaman's group while only cleansing a single target.

I don't disagree with your point about AM/Shaman being outclassed by the other healers, though. I mained healing AM for years when the game was live, and I was extremely aware of the class's shortcomings even while Tyrant AMs were spamming group heals every GCD. I just don't know that the proposed changes are the best way to go about addressing AM/Shaman's relative weakness in the context of 6v6.

EDIT: Just reread your post (second paragraph in particular), and I have to say that the one thing AM/Shaman actually can do is kite and heal. With the change to Healing Energy/Gork'll Fix It allowing them to be cast on the move, AM/Shaman has access to passable on-the-move direct healing if they choose to pick up Balanced Mending/Gork Fix'd It to buff its healing by 35%. Granted, the cost of spamming this is ridiculous for the Shaman because they don't get Wild Healing, but Do Sumfin Useful helps to mitigate that burden a bit in the form of additional utility and the passive benefit of a second HoT.

With Desperation and Balanced Mending on my AM, I've seen Healing Energy initial crits in excess of 1k, in the absence of a Rune Priest. This can be cast on the move, for ~28 AP with Wild Healing up, and it can be spammed ad infinitum with smart AP management. If a Rune Priest is around to heal the same target, the potential ceiling goes up by 25%. Compounded with the AM/Shaman's other kiting benefits (snare pool, ranged knockback if specced for, and 20% snare attached to PBAoE knockback), about the only thing AM/Shaman absolutely can do better than any other healer is kite and heal.

The problem is that no healer can output good (read: enough to save someone) healing while being pressured enough to have to kite. One of the biggest reasons for WP/DoK's healing supremacy is that their medium robe raises the threshold for what constitutes sufficient threat to kite. Sure, their group heal casts quickly and they have a solid, quick casting single target heal on a short cooldown, but their strength comes from their capacity to act as turrets because of their classes' natural, passive defenses.

[roadkillrobin]

Zealot and RP also got the change to that abillty, and they still don't use it. the Flash heals + all the procs and the AP afficiancy totally throws any kinda kite healing AM/Shaman can do under the buss. It's not even closee to how much better they are at it.

I don't agree with you on the WP/DoK being turrets tho, they are really good at being mobile while healing at the same time. 2 hots, group absorb, group cleanse can all be done on the move. DM/KI on .5 sec cast. and groupheals at 1 sec cast. 2½ times more armor also means they arn't being targeted over a robe class next to them, meaning they don't even need to kite that much.

The main problem is that AM and Shaman was ignored by the devs of WAR for years due the class population. And that just makes even less people play em. And now were here with a class that hasn't had a ballance fix on live at all while tons of stuff in the game has changed.

[gungnir08]

Zealot and RP also got the change to that abillty, and they still don't use it. the Flash heals + all the procs and the AP afficiancy totally throws any kinda kite healing AM/Shaman can do under the buss. It's not even closee to how much better they are at it.

I don't agree with you on the WP/DoK being turrets tho, they are really good at being mobile while healing at the same time. 2 hots, group absorb, group cleanse can all be done on the move. DM/KI on .5 sec cast. and groupheals at 1 sec cast. 2½ times more armor also means they arn't being targeted over a robe class next to them, meaning they don't even need to kite that much.

The main problem is that AM and Shaman was ignored by the devs of WAR for years due the class population. And that just makes even less people play em. And now were here with a class that hasn't had a ballance fix on live at all while tons of stuff in the game has changed.

RP/Zealot also don't have a tactic to exclusively make Rune of Mending/Dark Medicine heal more, and they have a more efficient alternative. I certainly don't think Healing Energy/Gork'll Fix It are any good without extensive tailoring to make them good. Even on Live, I had to use Balanced Mending for Healing Energy to have a place on my bar. That said, I did use Balanced Mending, and Healing Energy did have a place on my bar.

As for all that stuff WP can do:
[*] The group bubble is situational at best, and its long cooldown means it won't be ready every time you need it.
[*] Shaman has a maximum of three HoTs, AM has a maximum of two HoTs.
[*] Group cleanse is objectively good, but it's preventative care. Cleansing does little for a target in immediate danger.
[*] DM/KI have a cooldown, and they require the WP/DoK to stop to cast, even if only briefly.

And your point that the WP/DoK's armor factors into why they might not be targeted first ties directly into the passive benefit I was talking about; their medium robe means that their capacity for standing still and actually healing people is augmented beyond that which an AM/Shaman/RP/Zealot can achieve, and that is arguably what makes them so strong.