Recent Topics

Ads

Back in the last days of WAR for us Choppa's...

Let's talk about... everything else
User avatar
GrokmogDaBasher
Banned
Posts: 11

Back in the last days of WAR for us Choppa's...

Post#1 » Sun Nov 09, 2014 4:34 pm

DISCLAIMER: Not a rage/whine post, just something I want to get off my chest to have the competent devs of this project to be aware of, something which Mythic Devs overlooked badly. Mainly being end game balance, as well as build viability. And lastly but not the least, being fully utilized for any situation that we will encounter in the future.

TL;DR: Balance is a must for endgame. :P

First off, I do not know HOW Mythic did it, but they had a method where the RR point percentage was some how...altered. As a result, the RR gain was very large in comparison to average default RR experience gain. Suffice to say, I was wondering if the current devs of this server would be kind enough to be able to find a way to supply the same RR experience buff effect one day for the server. I won't lie, I have been out of the loop of following this revival of the game, but I (just guessing here) are going to assume they will bring back the entire game in full one day. RR1-RR100. Well, lets hope that is the case. The fact of the matter is that the RR gain was painfully slow, and alot of people lost interest when they felt like they were chipping away at a solid brick wall with a stone axe. Just saying, but I think that the PVP RR gain should be focused on when the devs feel is necessary, and will be at (hopefully), a high fast paced rate. Not one where I can get from RR1 to 50 in a day (lol), but one where it feels rational, and that I am making solid progress.


Now, I would like to discuss some end game class balance issue related things. Being the fact that as an end gamer of the old days of WAR, I would like to make a few points that the devs may want to keep in mind, so please hear me out. :)

The first thing I would like to mention is that during the last days of Mythic WAR, the endgame balance was brutal...brutally unbalanced. For instance, Witch Hunters were basically a Call of Duty MLG sniper god class, able to take out the more squishy classes without much effort and being able to outdps the WE too easily. I can remember many times having sudden WH's just one shotting me in the back while I am trying to do some solo ganking and get away easily, since they had friends looking out for them, and that did not feel fun or fair, but rather cheap. Even in small groups, WH's had too many easy advantages, especially when they just vanish as soon as that CD on their stealth skill wears off. Even in warband's, that happened a little too often. But hey, I may being a bit bias, but even so, I don't see what counted as a downside for playing the Witch Hunter besides the fact that you wore light armor.

I always was a strong believer in fair play, and balance, hence I thought some classes did not get it easy, while others got it too easy. White Lions seemed to be more DPS then tank, and could move around the battlefield better than any Chosen. The Chosen, while an efficient tank, did not have an easy time being able to escape, unlike White Lions. I never saw that as a fair thing, maybe if the Chosen had a 20 sec invulnerability spell that only wears off if you attack someone, and made you immune to stuns, snares and knock downs could have been a good counter skill to make things more fair, but hey, it seems Mythic Devs didn't care what Destro folks thought. RR100 White Lions were not even funny when all the RR90's, etc, were getting crumpled and the White Lion gets basically ganged up on, then jumps away into the crowd of Order and gets uberheals straight afterwards.

Anyways, not speaking out of bias but personal experience when I say this; Choppa's had the hardest time ever in end game. First off: The sad thing with Choppa, was that it was an all in or out class. Glass cannon was the only viable method to play, which would be 2 Handed Weapon User, as the class itself was terribly unbalanced in end game. One handed weapon spec felt like trying to chop redwood tree's down with a small, blunt hand axe.

Being a professional 2 handed great axe user (over 2 years of experience with this spec), things felt far more balanced. There was nothing more fun then chopping out huge damage numbers on the nearest squishy Rune Priest or Engineer that you could sink your teeth into. The issue with Path O' Da Hitta (2H), was that the best way to play it, was being a full blown rager. You basically had to be at full blast Rage to deal constant crit's (burst damage was your bread and butter in Hitta Spec).

The whole "hit when the bar is yellow" thing was cool and all, but it didn't mean much when you were trying to multi task between the Witch Hunter trying to one shot you, and that the fact of the matter is that your best skills were available mainly at full rage.
It was essentially pointless to try to stay in yellow rage mode, since: your knock down skill was not available unless you were at full rage (seriously, what the hell Mythic??!?), your damage was far less constant, and you were trying to multitask constantly, to the point you would not notice you were in the red until it was too late, there goes the Witcher Hunter backstab, down you go, and healers hate your guts. As we all know, Choppa is at his squishy-est when at red rage mode, and considering that's when Hitter Spec did the best managed damage...things didn't work out very well when you were the first one to die in your party as soon as you clashed with a order warband with your friends. No one was amused when you hit the ground faster then a rock falling out of the sky.

To only make things more unbalanced, your crit and damage numbers were so random in yellow zone, that it was pointless to remain in it. Constant 1000's, 2000's 2500's and so on were far more useful then the random 1400, 200, 1560, etc. Constant high ranking crits out compete obnoxious burst crit's that don't arise often enough to balance things out. You basically had to balance a half torn tightrope, and it was painful. The fact that full blown DPS Choppa armor was like cloth to most heavy hitting classes when it came to armoring the Choppa, it just became a massive whackamole life for end game Choppa. The AOE spec for Choppa apparently was the best spec for Choppa before I entered the game, and apparently got ubernerfed into oblivion after a while. I should know, I tried to play RR90 with it.
Suffice to say, it bombed badly. The fact that you sacrificed much crit and str in the place of weapon skill, instead of being able to find a synergy between the three, went to show that the spec was utterly ruined. None of the epic tier skills for it worked as intended, and barely even caused any critical hits. The thing was a straight up whackfest, and a poor managed one at that.

All the skills except one, being a snare skill, had terribly long cool downs. The rage meter had barely any synergy with the tree, not to mention all the useful skills had like...2 and a half minute long cool downs. It was just plain useless, and horrible. No one used it, and when I did see a Choppa use it, he would use it for like...3 days, and then change to 1H single target spec (forget the original name of spec) or Hitta Spec. Suffice to say, AOE Wrecka spec was....wrecked. :( Ruined to the point of total uselessness.
And things like these, that Mythic messed up badly, should be fixed and balanced in my opinion. Total viability should be a primary focus for people to use and enjoy using. Being able to be able to play every part of the game, and feeling like you are doing the right thing, should be the way to go in my eyes. In the end, there should be NO good, ultimate, uber spec, just a useful in every scenario spec. That's how I see it, in any rate. 8-)

Last, but not least, I would like to mention that the other issue I have, is that the price for endgame RVR items should be looked at in some point in the future, as they were outrageous in Mythic's WAR. Some items IIRC went for 10k coins, and the only proper method to acquire these coins, was to farm constantly in Land of The Dead. And no one liked to do that, really. Most people were more focused on PVP then farming items until they hit RR90, and then required a friend to help them out. My point is that the coins required and the prices set for them should have been more balanced out, but in the end, they really weren't. But hey, just something I would like to suggest to dev's to look into when they can find the chance to do so :)

Thanks for listening to my "rant", see you guys on the battlefield! Cheers!

-Grokmog Bonebreaka

PS. If anyone has any questions about my questions, I will answer them as best I can.
Image

It's time to learn what is the meaning of GIT GUD, casul 8-)

Ads
User avatar
Azarael
Posts: 5332

Re: Back in the last days of WAR for us Choppa's...

Post#2 » Sun Nov 09, 2014 4:40 pm

With respect, this is the most Destruction-biased post I've ever read in my life.
White Lions seemed to be more DPS then tank
That's because they ARE DPS.

It'll be years before any of these issues are relevant, and there are limits to what can be modified given that this is a server emulator. I believe the developers are trying to reach 1.4.8's state of the game before doing anything else.

User avatar
GrokmogDaBasher
Banned
Posts: 11

Re: Back in the last days of WAR for us Choppa's...

Post#3 » Sun Nov 09, 2014 4:51 pm

Azarael wrote:With respect, this is the most Destruction-biased post I've ever read in my life.
White Lions seemed to be more DPS then tank
That's because they ARE DPS.
Fair enough. They were DPS I guess, but they were in a sense off tanks. They did incredible tanking, so please correct me on that if I am mistaken, but that's how it felt to me. There was a particular WL on Badlands who had like two healers helping him out, and it was impossibly hard to kill his group, until at least half of the warband focused on him instead of what ever else we were focused on.

Anyways I may come off as biased, but I am not taking anyone's side here (much :P). The way I have always seen things should be balanced, is that ALL CLASSES should be powerful, and thus work well with each other, and can stand toe to toe. I am against imbalance though (considering I played the most squishiest class, neck and neck with Witch Elf, minus the stealth, which made things only worse), so you know. But I am simply using my classes as a comparison of balance in general. To be blunt, I am not saying anything like: pls make choppa uber and all other classes pure ass, ty dev luv u <3
Image

It's time to learn what is the meaning of GIT GUD, casul 8-)

User avatar
RyanMakara
Posts: 1563

Re: Back in the last days of WAR for us Choppa's...

Post#4 » Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:06 pm

"It was essentially pointless to try to stay in yellow rage mode, since: your knock down skill was not available unless you were at full rage (seriously, what the hell Mythic??!?)"

I'm just dropping this in to agree. WHAT THE HELL, MYTHIC?!
Image

User avatar
RyanMakara
Posts: 1563

Re: Back in the last days of WAR for us Choppa's...

Post#5 » Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:29 pm

GrokmogDaBasher wrote: First off, I do not know HOW Mythic did it, but they had a method where the RR point percentage was some how...altered. As a result, the RR gain was very large in comparison to average default RR experience gain. (...) The fact of the matter is that the RR gain was painfully slow, and alot of people lost interest when they felt like they were chipping away at a solid brick wall with a stone axe. Just saying, but I think that the PVP RR gain should be focused on when the devs feel is necessary, and will be at (hopefully)
Agreed. The main reason people did keep farming/warcamp waiting, is because of the massive influx of renown you'd get from a zone lock, compared to the renown gain from killing a person. People would be more encouraged to keep fighting if the RvR gain from killing would be of a nature tht make it worth fighting for. Also, maybe it's an idea to reward a slight amount of renown for just dying...? Most people run from fights they are certain to lose because there is nothing to gain. Either a currency drop that you gain from dying in RvR, a little influx of renown, or a renown increase buff of 15 minutes would make people go out into the lake to fight more, instead of logging once they realise they're doomed to fail in fights.
GrokmogDaBasher wrote: Witch Hunters were basically a Call of Duty MLG sniper god class, able to take out the more squishy classes without much effort and being able to outdps the WE too easily. (...) Even in small groups, WH's had too many easy advantages, especially when they just vanish as soon as that CD on their stealth skill wears off. (...) But hey, I may being a bit bias, but even so, I don't see what counted as a downside for playing the Witch Hunter besides the fact that you wore light armor.
Want to know the downside? You can't charge head-first into a fight. You ALWAYS have to take people by surprise for maximum efficiency. If they spot you, your chances to win are cut in half, just like that. That's what the WH/WE mechanic is based on. You may be right that strength and crit stacking caused a damage overkill, but that's what being a WH/WE is all about. Being able to attack first, eradicate, and disappear again.
GrokmogDaBasher wrote: I always was a strong believer in fair play, and balance, hence I thought some classes did not get it easy, while others got it too easy.
Some classes are easy to play, some aren't. I think the balance relies more on that. Not every class is the same in terms of understand, let alone enjoyment based on their mechanic.
GrokmogDaBasher wrote: White Lions seemed to be more DPS then tank, and could move around the battlefield better than any Chosen. The Chosen, while an efficient tank, did not have an easy time being able to escape, unlike White Lions.
The whole WL/Mara/SW/SH mirror pairing was a logistical mess from the get-go. In my opinion, we should re-do the White Lion as a stance class, not a pet class. Same goes for the SH; remove the pet and make him just as viable in melee combat as the SW, who gets the same logical treatment. Squig Armor can be kept, mirrorer by the SW by use of some Elven shroud.
GrokmogDaBasher wrote: but hey, it seems Mythic Devs didn't care what Destro folks thought. RR100 White Lions were not even funny when all the RR90's, etc, were getting crumpled and the White Lion gets basically ganged up on, then jumps away into the crowd of Order and gets uberheals straight afterwards.
Here you are both biased and nitpicking. We used to have a Slayer on Karak Azgal/Norn, who was constantly getting pocket healed with half a warband of his alliance. It made us hate Slayers. It made us think that all Slayers were OP. In reality, Slayers are only slightly imbalanced due to certain abilties it has over the Choppa, and our instigation was nothing but a personal ones.


As for the whole Choppa thing; the class was designed as an AoE support DPS, much like the Engi/Magus. It seems that the way the game proved to be caused most of the balancing issues here; nobody played the classes how they were intended to be because it was impossible to make such an expectation realistic. You'd always have to fight in a party and always have more than a few people against you to make an AoE class prove its worth in such a way; in reality, the Choppa became some hap-hazardous DPS impaired gimp that swung out too heavily with his attacks, causing damage to multiple persons from time to time, dealing insignificant, widepsread damage. While we all know that focused burst damage is the way to get somebody killed in this game, therey everyone specced their characters as such.
Image

User avatar
Azarael
Posts: 5332

Re: Back in the last days of WAR for us Choppa's...

Post#6 » Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:32 pm

RyanMakara wrote:The whole WL/Mara/SW/SH mirror pairing was a logistical mess from the get-go. In my opinion, we should re-do the White Lion as a stance class, not a pet class. Same goes for the SH; remove the pet and make him just as viable in melee combat as the SW, who gets the same logical treatment. Squig Armor can be kept, mirrorer by the SW by use of some Elven shroud.
Strongly agree with this, but I doubt it's possible as it'll require a lot of client editing. Pet classes are a mess.

eisenhans
Suspended
Posts: 64

Re: Back in the last days of WAR for us Choppa's...

Post#7 » Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:24 am

Kinda funny, considering Destruction absolutely dominated basically every server from beginning to end. I think there were just a few months total (ie. during the whole WAR run) where Order dominated.

I agree on removing SH and WL pets, if possible at all. Those never worked correctly.

User avatar
torrent6
Posts: 21

Re: Back in the last days of WAR for us Choppa's...

Post#8 » Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:59 am

I am also greatly in favor of pet removal. Or at least lowing the rank requirement for the perks "Loner" and "All by meself"
Destro: Magus, Chosen, Zealot
Order: Ironbreaker, White Lion, Warrior Priest

Ads
User avatar
amputationsaw
Posts: 607

Re: Back in the last days of WAR for us Choppa's...

Post#9 » Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:57 am

Thats a great point of view as destro but out of my experiences in end game on order side, a slayer had at least the same hard life in rvr. I just remember SCs were every squishy class got grabbed in the enemy lines by a marauder. Which was just ridiculous unless they were very strong in fighting as well. Of course that's based on the warband you've got and choppa/slayer gets very strong with a strong group.

And I agree that for the last month's, destro dominated most of the keep sieges and capital wars. With no doubt.

User avatar
Akame
Posts: 43

Re: Back in the last days of WAR for us Choppa's...

Post#10 » Thu Nov 27, 2014 9:17 am

The game was no where near as unbalanced as people on here seem to make it out to be. Though it was more balanced at rr80 than at rr100. Both slayers and choppas were really strong at endgame (I'm talking rr100, full gear), maybe not solo charging a warband in RvR, but it's a group game. Especially a guarded, pocket healed slayer in a keep defense or a city siege, where ID with rr100 procs would destroy most things beside premades.

I just hope the devs don't touch balance at all, because people will never agree and it's a really slippery slope once you start "fixing" things that don't need fixing.
White Lion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot] and 50 guests