6 man meta

[footpatrol2]

I'm going to pull up some of my quotes from a different post to help make my point. Please note this is 100% opinion and not fact. There are some facts in here though lol.

"I keep seeing people talk about balance from a 6 man perspective. I understand this perspective. I sat in this perspective for a long time also. It is the easiest group to reliably set up. But a 6 man from a premade organizer perspective plays differently then a 12 man, 18 man or 24 man. Most SC's are at 12 man level with some being 6 man or 18 man. At the minimum (in my opinion) balance should be focused at the 12 man and not the 6 man."

"I think trying to balance this game at the 6 man level is straight wrong. (<---opinion) If this game had all of its SC's based on 6 man play and only 6 can join in a SC, I'd say you got an argument. This game in my opinion was based at the minimum 12 man level if not straight 24 man level. We can change the game so that its based on the 6 man level which is what I think the current playerbase is trying to do. But this game in my opinion was never based on small scale combat. There are also better games for small scale combat. Actually there are not better games for 6 man.

What I'm trying to say is group compositions are not nearly as rigid as they are made out to be if you expand to 6+ group settings. It is my opinion that some of these "deemed" underpowered builds/spec's become a lot more important after the first 6 have been established. I'd really hate to see more mirror pushing from the community like mythic was doing. Again opinion."

A nice arguement for 6 man's not being the focus is the combination of healers and HTL. Dedicated Healers have to stack willpower to heal which also increases their disrupt chance and gives them a healthy dose of disrupt as a by-product probably sitting at 25+% disrupt passively. If you use 3 shield tanks you can greatly mitigate the effect of Range DPS(Sorc/BW) through smart play utilizing HTL 45% plus healers disrupt 25+% = 70+% disrupt.

It is my opinion that The intense damage coming from BW/Sorc is to punish players not using HTL techniques. HTL greatly mitigates thier affect. Sure some stuff will get through but not all of it like it currently is.

In a 6 man meta bringing 3 shield tanks seriously hinders your group compositions, not so much in a 12 man setting. You don't even need to spec specifically for HTL on your tanks only a few and make sure your non spec specific HTL tanks brought shields. Have your Highest disrupt tank stand in front of the other HTL tanks too give them an additional 15% disrupt.

People are already running 6 man's. Just ask in the LFG channel Hey I got a 6 man already made anyone want to team up with me and make this 12 man?

To rebalance this game on 6 man your going to have to Gut the classes to refocus this game which I would hate to see.

[boog]

Your quotes are just showing that people don't want the game to be changed to be focused on 6 mans but you aren't providing any evidence that the game is being changed to focus on 6 mans.

I don't think WAR or RoR has ever been about forming 6 mans. People don't form 6 mans because it is the best/only way to get stuff done. 6 mans are formed because it is easier to get 6 friends/strangers in a VoIP and run SCs/ORvR than it is to get 12+ people.

Also people typically run 6 mans because you can't really effectively queue for SC with a group larger than 6 people.

Running a 6 man gives you a small manageable group able to elicit change on the battlefield without having to be the commander of warband and have to coordinate 24 strangers that run around like illiterate morons half the time.

6 mans create more dynamic gameplay. When you are running with a warband there is no real dynamic. It is just 24 people acting individually but in a cluster.

People will always form 6 mans regardless of what you or the devs do, that is just a fact. I solo and zerg a lot but I would MUCH rather form a 6 man and hop in a VoIP program with friends or even strangers and roam around the lakes than be clustered in with a warband of random people.

(Quick note on your HTL stance; the tanks have to be all different races for that to work, not just any assortment of shielded tank. Unless they changed that in RoR and I'm not aware of it)

[greenstoned]

compared to other games there aint many abilities that work out of party, limiting most skills to 6man use, even in a wb, gotta balance the classes around each teams for it, which is 1 of the bigger factor for the 6 man theory. ofc a few abilities do bend that rule(some morales, martyr's blessing, etc), but most are in party only

[mursie]

[Morf]

I'm going to pull up some of my quotes from a different post to help make my point. Please note this is 100% opinion and not fact. There are some facts in here though lol.

"I keep seeing people talk about balance from a 6 man perspective. I understand this perspective. I sat in this perspective for a long time also. It is the easiest group to reliably set up. But a 6 man from a premade organizer perspective plays differently then a 12 man, 18 man or 24 man. Most SC's are at 12 man level with some being 6 man or 18 man. At the minimum (in my opinion) balance should be focused at the 12 man and not the 6 man."

"I think trying to balance this game at the 6 man level is straight wrong. (<---opinion) If this game had all of its SC's based on 6 man play and only 6 can join in a SC, I'd say you got an argument. This game in my opinion was based at the minimum 12 man level if not straight 24 man level. We can change the game so that its based on the 6 man level which is what I think the current playerbase is trying to do. But this game in my opinion was never based on small scale combat. There are also better games for small scale combat. Actually there are not better games for 6 man.

What I'm trying to say is group compositions are not nearly as rigid as they are made out to be if you expand to 6+ group settings. It is my opinion that some of these "deemed" underpowered builds/spec's become a lot more important after the first 6 have been established. I'd really hate to see more mirror pushing from the community like mythic was doing. Again opinion."

A nice arguement for 6 man's not being the focus is the combination of healers and HTL. Dedicated Healers have to stack willpower to heal which also increases their disrupt chance and gives them a healthy dose of disrupt as a by-product probably sitting at 25+% disrupt passively. If you use 3 shield tanks you can greatly mitigate the effect of Range DPS(Sorc/BW) through smart play utilizing HTL 45% plus healers disrupt 25+% = 70+% disrupt.

It is my opinion that The intense damage coming from BW/Sorc is to punish players not using HTL techniques. HTL greatly mitigates thier affect. Sure some stuff will get through but not all of it like it currently is.

In a 6 man meta bringing 3 shield tanks seriously hinders your group compositions, not so much in a 12 man setting. You don't even need to spec specifically for HTL on your tanks only a few and make sure your non spec specific HTL tanks brought shields. Have your Highest disrupt tank stand in front of the other HTL tanks too give them an additional 15% disrupt.

People are already running 6 man's. Just ask in the LFG channel Hey I got a 6 man already made anyone want to team up with me and make this 12 man?

To rebalance this game on 6 man your going to have to Gut the classes to refocus this game which I would hate to see.

I think the point about 6v6 meta(2/2/2) is for balance purposes 90% of the time its going to be alot better to balance around it, as soon as you jump to 12v12, 24v24 or even say 3v3 alot of skills, tactics, morales, specs and general gameplay have no use, this doesnt mean 6v6 is the most favourable, important or only way ppl play the game but its the best way to balance the game.
I do believe there are exceptions that should be balanced more towards large scale fights and they will likely be alot easier to handle because the strategy and gameplay of larger scale fights is easier to grip then a 6v6 (2/2/2).

[peterthepan3]

I think it is simply logical to balance the game from a 6man POV upwards: if a class can only excel in a 12/24+ player environment, what use is there in playing it when: a) action is dead; b) if you can't occasionally roam with your friends small-scale.

A warband consists of 4 parties of 6. If we balance around 6mans, then this has a knock-on effect to warbands. A positive balance in 1 party can have a positive influence in WBs.

[bloodi]

6 to 24 doesnt translate as well as you people like to think it does. Just like 1 to 6 doesnt.

What excels in 6 man and what excels in 24 are two different monsters that should be look at on their own.

[footpatrol2]

(Sorry for the wall of text. Its hard for me not to due this.)

@Boog

A reason on why I'm bringing this up is if you look at players talk in the class sections they are highly concerned on 6 man style of play and that their class needs to be re-balanced for it. When I think the classes are generally ok with some extremely minor tweaks needed, if you expand out of the 6 man setting and look at it from a 12 man setting or higher.

For the sake of argument lets drop the 24 man idea and only focus on 6 man and 12 man's.

12 man premades were a pretty big thang in live. It was easy to que 12 man for a SC. Maybe RoR has changed this. This game is gaining more popularity. It is completely viable that 12 man's might become the norm again on weekends as it was in live, at least on the servers I played on it was. The game was on its decline when I played most of these 12 man's.

I'm specifically talking about premades. I'm not talking about strangers. Usually in premades your playing with repeat players, You start off at 6 then slowly build to 12. In addition when gear was terribly hard to get in live, warband level premades were created by guilds in city pushes.

I personally would create mix and not mix pre-mades not through a guild but through a large network of friends. Because I was constantly running 6 man premades, people would have to log off. I'd find replacements and hence my network got larger. If the group liked the new player and the new player liked the group he'd be incorporated into the premade settings. Sometimes I'd have more then 6 players that wanted to be part of the premade so I just started a 2nd group. Sometimes it would be a 9 man or 10 man. We would be able to run 12 man's easily on the weekends and slowly got into 18 man's. I don't think I'm a unique special flower in this and I'm sure others have the same experiences.

I am 100% not talking about strangers just button smashing for no reason like how it currently is in zerg style of play.

I'm not saying that people should stop running 6 man's. 6 man's are the introduction into organized play. I'm saying the meta goes a lot further then this. What I'm saying is the game balance doesn't stop at 6 man premades. There a tons of tricks available beyone 6 man premades.

To be fair. I don't see a lot of dev's commenting on the class balance issue's which makes me hopeful that they are taking consideration class balance at higher level's then just 6 man premades.

@boog
Not to be mean but your wrong about HTL, unless they have changed the mechanics in RoR.

@greenstoned
There are quite a few abilities that buff outside of the group setting unless RoR is changing that.

[peterthepan3]

6 to 24 doesnt translate as well as you people like to think it does. Just like 1 to 6 doesnt.

What excels in 6 man and what excels in 24 are two different monsters that should be look at on their own.

yes yes, 'us people' and our stupid 6man elitist crap!
what do you suggest would be the optimal number of people to balance around? i'm genuinely curious.

[bloodi]

yes yes, 'us people' and our stupid 6man elitist crap!

Are you going to try to pull this card every time? Because if what you want is me disregarding you as stupid, continue doing so.

what do you suggest would be the optimal number of people to balance around? i'm genuinely curious.

I just told you, 6 and 24 man balance are differnt thing, so each should be looked on their own, do i need to break it down for you?