WE and WHs changes made the game booring any fixes?

[Sever1n]

Tnx for the numbers. I barely see 2k+ something on wh, but in case of time https://ibb.co/dnpsFXy
Thats no medal and senti eggs, full ws glass. Pre patch it was 13-14. WE prob should have lot better burst window numbers though. Try with prebuffed brew. 6-7sec its kinda insane pressure dont think anyone should be able to perform it.

[Gunlinger]

I am just curious by now, how many of these ''i have tested it and it works with flanking too'', or those ''it ignored armor before last patch too'', haven't even noticed by now that most of the training targets and even some of the test dummies are having back and front sides swapped, count both sides as rear and even some dummies no longer turning around at all.

And no Flanking is not affected by FP. because it is !=0 for FP
And Torment and AW should not grant the 100% armor ignore while FP is active.
Sure it would make the WH way more weaker then the WE, since the WE got spammed with utility and bonus over bonus self buffs and enemy debuffs while WH ''just got this T-Shirt''.

But letting those 2 Classes keep an not intended 10 seconds 100% armor ignore trough FP on their highest hitting, low ap spammable builder. (on top of one of them not just every 60 sec for 10 sec, but even every 20 sec for 10 sec) is an absolute NO GO.
We had years of back and forth debates about the fairness and or balance of Rampage.
But here we are with people defending 1 class on both sides, that can 100% bypass
every single point of Armor by GEAR PIECE, TALISMANS, TACTICS, GROUP BUFFS, AURAS, POTS and HIGH COOLDOWN SELF BUFFS by activating a 10 second lasting self buff.

The target does not even get a chance to outmaneuver the assassins attempts to get into their backside anymore. They just get their Armor reduced to being NAKED by a spam able builder. For 10 seconds. Most low and middle armor Classes on Order do not survive the time of a single knockdown + 2 sec of attacks from a single WE right now.

But now we are in a state where even end gear SnB Tanks get shredded by FP AW/SS build WElfs.


I play my WH too and think it finally needed buffs after all the years where it was ignored when it came to balancing. But FP granting the Armor ignore part on Torment while it is only supposed to grant the ability to use Abilities that have positional requirements to be used regardless of the positioning is WRONG! It was never intended to work that way and it never did before. The current state has to be fixed.

Every Armor bypass, ignore or reduction Ability in this game has a general operating mode.
1:
10,15,20 sec
XXX,XX,X %
The longer its duration, the lesser its % of bypass or debuff.

2:
25% 50% 100%
XXX XX X sec CD
The stronger its % or bypass or debuff, the longer its cooldown.

3: Range or positional requirements

4: a combination of 1 and 2. An increase of the AP costs or an evenly or even stronger self debuff while active.

Torment and AW have the positional requirement of hitting the BACK! (not hitting the back OR side aka facing away) as the drawback to their 100% no armor ignore.



Ability REQUIREMENTS indicated in BLUE above the main ability explanation text!
''Requires Parry/Block/Dodge/Disrupt'', ''Requires Incognito/Prowling'', ''Requires Accusations/Blood lust'', ''Requires Pistol/Shield/Great Weapon...)''

Additional Effects indicated plainly in the main ability explanation text!
''if you are... behind your target, hitting your target in the Back;Side;Rear.. wielding a ''weapon XY'', furious, berserk,Vengefull...........''

Feinted Positioning: Your positional attacks can be used without the positional requirement for 10 seconds. Does not affect morale abilities.


-BaL: Target must be Facing away from you (positional requirement indicated in blue)
-Pistol Whip: Target must be facing away from you (positional requirement indicated in blue)
-----
Sacrificial Stab: Target must be Facing away from you (positional requirement indicated in blue)
Heart Seeker: Target must be Facing away from you (positional requirement indicated in blue)
_________

-Torment: ...,if you are behind your target, this attack will ignore armor
(no positional requirement indicated in blue. Bonus positional part of main text)
-----
-Agonizing Wound:... If you are behind your target, you ignore your target's armor.
(no positional requirement indicated in blue. Bonus positional part of main text)


-Snap Shot: ...Your attack will snare the enemy if used behind your target,...
-Throwing Dagger:...Your attack will snare the enemy if used behind your target,...
both:
(no positional requirement indicated in blue. Bonus positional part of main text)

This was changed last patch to be affected by FP to address strafe kiting range classes basically moving half forward and half sideways at full run speed while ''facing'' and hitting the enemy behind them, while not getting counted as hit in the back or side (head direction of player model to target defining outgoing and incoming cone and hitbox area Body direction of player model defining incoming) Strafing player's body front/side aligned to the direction of movement while Head model aiming at target over shoulder leading to a twist in the hit box area alignment while kiting.
___


Any more questions or unqualified opinions?

If yes, then i will point it clearly out again. Positional Requirements are not above the
Description text and indicated in blue color because of someone adding a color code around that part of text in a combined text field.
They are placed above it in a different color, because that spot is where
Requirements, dependencies and applied carer mechanics/points are placed by the system.

Changing Throwing dagger and Snap Shot snare to be affected by FP clearly introduced a bug to all the additional effects on both classes that involve a positional dependency inside the description part.

Because the only other explanation would be that someone deliberately changed 6 abilities to have their additional effects being affected by FP without adding 4 of these at the patch notes. You may forget to add 1 but forgetting 4 out of 6? Nah.

[Stinkyweed]

@Sever1n

Best I could do, with various glass cannon builds (and sub-optimal gear mixes getting my DPS to 292) versus 0% mitigation targets over a span of 30mins:

AW 2193
SS 2077
PA 2260
HS 2603

I might be able to bump that slightly if ToB was slotted and proc'd, but my DPS would dip so it would probably be about 3%.

[Gobtar]

Spoiler:

I am just curious by now, how many of these ''i have tested it and it works with flanking too'', or those ''it ignored armor before last patch too'', haven't even noticed by now that most of the training targets and even some of the test dummies are having back and front sides swapped, count both sides as rear and even some dummies no longer turning around at all.

And no Flanking is not affected by FP. because it is !=0 for FP
And Torment and AW should not grant the 100% armor ignore while FP is active.
Sure it would make the WH way more weaker then the WE, since the WE got spammed with utility and bonus over bonus self buffs and enemy debuffs while WH ''just got this T-Shirt''.

But letting those 2 Classes keep an not intended 10 seconds 100% armor ignore trough FP on their highest hitting, low ap spammable builder. (on top of one of them not just every 60 sec for 10 sec, but even every 20 sec for 10 sec) is an absolute NO GO.
We had years of back and forth debates about the fairness and or balance of Rampage.
But here we are with people defending 1 class on both sides, that can 100% bypass
every single point of Armor by GEAR PIECE, TALISMANS, TACTICS, GROUP BUFFS, AURAS, POTS and HIGH COOLDOWN SELF BUFFS by activating a 10 second lasting self buff.

The target does not even get a chance to outmaneuver the assassins attempts to get into their backside anymore. They just get their Armor reduced to being NAKED by a spam able builder. For 10 seconds. Most low and middle armor Classes on Order do not survive the time of a single knockdown + 2 sec of attacks from a single WE right now.

But now we are in a state where even end gear SnB Tanks get shredded by FP AW/SS build WElfs.

Here is the link if you want my references:



I play my WH too and think it finally needed buffs after all the years where it was ignored when it came to balancing. But FP granting the Armor ignore part on Torment while it is only supposed to grant the ability to use Abilities that have positional requirements to be used regardless of the positioning is WRONG! It was never intended to work that way and it never did before. The current state has to be fixed.

Every Armor bypass, ignore or reduction Ability in this game has a general operating mode.
1:
10,15,20 sec
XXX,XX,X %
The longer its duration, the lesser its % of bypass or debuff.

2:
25% 50% 100%
XXX XX X sec CD
The stronger its % or bypass or debuff, the longer its cooldown.

3: Range or positional requirements

4: a combination of 1 and 2. An increase of the AP costs or an evenly or even stronger self debuff while active.

Torment and AW have the positional requirement of hitting the BACK! (not hitting the back OR side aka facing away) as the drawback to their 100% no armor ignore.



Ability REQUIREMENTS indicated in BLUE above the main ability explanation text!
''Requires Parry/Block/Dodge/Disrupt'', ''Requires Incognito/Prowling'', ''Requires Accusations/Blood lust'', ''Requires Pistol/Shield/Great Weapon...)''

Additional Effects indicated plainly in the main ability explanation text!
''if you are... behind your target, hitting your target in the Back;Side;Rear.. wielding a ''weapon XY'', furious, berserk,Vengefull...........''

Feinted Positioning: Your positional attacks can be used without the positional requirement for 10 seconds. Does not affect morale abilities.


-BaL: Target must be Facing away from you (positional requirement indicated in blue)
-Pistol Whip: Target must be facing away from you (positional requirement indicated in blue)
-----
Sacrificial Stab: Target must be Facing away from you (positional requirement indicated in blue)
Heart Seeker: Target must be Facing away from you (positional requirement indicated in blue)
_________

-Torment: ...,if you are behind your target, this attack will ignore armor
(no positional requirement indicated in blue. Bonus positional part of main text)
-----
-Agonizing Wound:... If you are behind your target, you ignore your target's armor.
(no positional requirement indicated in blue. Bonus positional part of main text)


-Snap Shot: ...Your attack will snare the enemy if used behind your target,...
-Throwing Dagger:...Your attack will snare the enemy if used behind your target,...
both:
(no positional requirement indicated in blue. Bonus positional part of main text)

This was changed last patch to be affected by FP to address strafe kiting range classes basically moving forward at full run speed while ''facing'' and hitting the enemy behind them, while not getting counted as hit in the back or side (head direction of player model to target defining outgoing. Body direction of player model defining incoming) Strafing player's body front/side aligned to the direction of movement while Head model aiming at target over shoulder.
___


Any more questions or unqualified opinions?

If yes, then i will point it clearly out again. Positional Requirements are not above the
Description text and indicated in blue color because of someone adding a color code around that part of text in a combined test field.
They are placed above it in a different color, because that spot is where
Requirements, dependencies and applied carer mechanics/points are placed by the system.

Changing Throwing dagger and Snap Shot snare to be affected by FP clearly introduced a bug to all the additional effects on both classes that involve a positional dependency inside the description part.

Because the only other explanation would be that someone deliberately changed 6 abilities to have their additional effects being affected by FP without adding 4 of these at the patch notes. You may forget to add 1 but forgetting 4 out of 6? Nah.

I am sorry friend, FP always worked on Torment and AW...it did on live, it did here, it was by design...and honestly considering how hard latency is on NA players, WE/WH would much much harder to play due latency if it worked you desired.

Let me ask you this...

Why do WH/WE get FP at level 7?
You dont get your positional attacks till much much later?

Before you ask, Tentonhammers guide to witch hunters (circa 2008) shows the ability accessible at level 7

Its because you get torment prior to level 7.

The original description of torment was:

A destructive thrust that deals x damage to your enemy. If you are behind your target, this attack will ignore armor.

semantic aside...it DID work on live, it was intended to be used in tier 1 on Torment/AW.

-------------------

I will say that I am not really sure I like the change to make feinted positioning work to proc range snares...i feel like the one real downside that WE/WHs had was a lack of snare, and I think while people are complaining about tactics that none of the best WEs run or pounce spam or whatever flavour of the month complaint people have about...The Snares (and added one to Sac Stab) was a really strong addition.

The other thing to keep in mind with FP...it doesnt stop defenses, and the risk reward for popping FP is that you are running against defense checks, which is not good when you are banking on a KD. FP used as anything other than to help overcome back peddling or latency ends up being a crutch and will usually not win you the fight.

Here is the link if you want my references:
https://web.archive.org/web/20081025082 ... node/46914