WE and WHs changes made the game booring any fixes?

[Farrul]

No, it's not a fact, it's your opinion.

It's not my opinion that you don't know what solo means, you have proven it with your own argument. Hence it's not my opinion that you do not get this balance discussion or the arguments made in it about the WE.

But unlike you, developers in general should be aware of what is opinion and what is a fact, if not they can gather statistics like the one in the OP to get clues ( hopefully that could lead to better balance decisions).

[Farrul]

Regarding the criticism made about the WE's offence in the last pages, there are some stuff done in the mdps patch which are overdone, too much armor ignore seems obvious on the WE( lasting for too long).

I've roamed on lowbie destro toons lately since Order is having the majority of players right now for some time( yeah the RoR cycles) and the WH ''plague'' is there as well, everyone using the Bal spec it seems (WH, Bal did not need a 25% crit increase, instead there are some underused WH stuff that could need some attention).

The thing is, these classes are supposed to be ''assassins'' hence devs giving them DPS buffs vs singletarget is the right concept, but i fear they went a little too crazy in this patch and should rethink some stuff.

Now to give an example of something the ''assassin archetype'' does absolutely not need, take a look at the WE tactic sacrifices rewarded. 600 absorb/3 on a core tactic is absolutely not balanced and never has been. Should have been reduced to 450/3 at the most a long time ago. At 600 it absorbs as much as Vauls Buffer on a maxed Vaul SM tank tree, as for procing on crit this is hardly an argument since it would be proccing most of the time regardless( considering how crit looks in the game and all small hits etc).

(going a little off-topic) Is there a bias here i wonder in the balanceteam, why nerf stuff like the IB's core tactics( this tank being the least good Order tank and devs keep picking on it for years now) and not touch things like Sacrifical rewarded which is an obvious balance outlier. Such as tactic could make sense on a Marauder monstrosity type but a stealth class with all its utility and safety added into that, nop.

[Amakusa]

The Witch is pretty strong rn.
Pierce Armor and Sacrificial Stab hit like a Truck
Shadow Leap is very strong too, good times for Bikini Warriors!

[Amakusa]

You want a solid reason for why so many people view the WE, pre patch as way to strong because of all the stuff they got given for free without any drawback?

Here is your example.
Sunlinger Knight of the Blazing Sun.
81
Full def Souv
unbuffed
Toughness: 744
Initiative: 257
Wounds: 927
Armor: 4260
Block: 40.6%
Critical Hit Rate Reduction: 22.9%

Basic SnB WB build AP/Armor/15%Helbuff

Reikland 2026-02-15
01:34:41

encounter with 2 WEs camping order Warcamp

WITCH_ELF
Killer: Klostein

Deathblow 4505 40%
Lvl 40
RR 84
RED

Agonizing Wound 1954 43.4%
Sacrificial Stab 1591 35.3%
Kiss of Agony 655 14.5%
Auto Attack 305 6.8%
____________________
WITCH_ELF
Assist: Hexi 915 8%
Lvl 40
RR 82
RED

Kiss of Death 452 49.4%
Witchbrew 269 29.4%
Auto Attack 194 21.2%


__________

What does it mean? First off Feinted Positioning was changed to nowadays not just let you use Abilities that have a positional restriction aka hit the back or the side, to also grant the additional positional bonus of Abilities. AKA Argonizing Wound/Torment IGNORING your targets armor.

What does the Witch have that the WH does not?
Swift movements Feinted Positioning cooldown time reduced by 40 sec!.
That is 40 sec less CD of 60 sec CD on an Ability that lasts 10 sec.
EVERY 10 SECONDS the WE and only the WE will IGNORE ALL your ARMOR for 10 SECONDS.

While Feinted positioning is on its 10! sec CD, Sacrificial Stab will double hit you WILE ALSO IGNORING ALL of your ARMOR. AND it will snare you by 40%

That's it. That's all they need to do. 10 sec of stabbing a target that gets denied ALL it's Armor no matter where they position them self.
A finisher on top that will also deny the target any of it's Armor.
And if that is not enough, then the 10 sec 100% armor ignore will be ready again after 10 sec anyway.


The Elephant in the room is Feinted positioning granting the bonus armor ignore of Sacrificial Stab for 10 sec while being able to reduce the time it is not active to 10 sec with a tactic only available to the WE.

And while all the destro players Cry about Atonement tactic on the WH now also granting 25% crit to Abso AND BaL, that are Finishers that require Accusation points and of which 1 has a CD of 10 sec, the WE gets Masterful Treachery tactic that gives them FLAT 15% more dmg for 10 sec After their basic Stealth opener.

BALANCE MY A.

Feinted positioning always worked like this. Removing positional requirement from things like AW, so you can armor ignore face hitting someone risking it will parry.
For SS its not feinted positioning is granting armor ignore, the ability itself. It just removes positional requirement.
Except it got buffed for WEs with a tactic giving 150WS and 150INI and cd reduction from 60 sec to 20sec (old tactic "only" gave cd reduction it was awesome enough anyway). But not for WHs who also have feinted pos every 60 sec.

FALSE! Feinted positioning ONLY made it possible to use Abilities that have a positional requirement to be used from any position. To make sure you can use the backside requiring knockdown and the right tree top Finisher on demand. The part that it now also grants the Bonus armor ignore of Torment and Sacrificial Stab while active is a recent addition.

FP always worked for Torment/AW and Flanking too.
Pls dont spread false informations

[keir86200]

WE are faaaaaar stronger than WH and it's a real problem.

[Gunlinger]

Feinted positioning always worked like this. Removing positional requirement from things like AW, so you can armor ignore face hitting someone risking it will parry.
For SS its not feinted positioning is granting armor ignore, the ability itself. It just removes positional requirement.
Except it got buffed for WEs with a tactic giving 150WS and 150INI and cd reduction from 60 sec to 20sec (old tactic "only" gave cd reduction it was awesome enough anyway). But not for WHs who also have feinted pos every 60 sec.

FALSE! Feinted positioning ONLY made it possible to use Abilities that have a positional requirement to be used from any position. To make sure you can use the backside requiring knockdown and the right tree top Finisher on demand. The part that it now also grants the Bonus armor ignore of Torment and Sacrificial Stab while active is a recent addition.

FP always worked for Torment/AW and Flanking too.
Pls dont spread false informations

For the final time now. In the most clear way of articulation.
- Torment and AW never had and do not have any positional requirement to be USABLE.
- Feinted Positioning USED to only make it possible to BE ABLE to use Abilities that have a positional requirement, without actually fulfilling the positional requirement.
- Feinted positioning NEVER made Torment or Agonizing Wound ignore armor while active without actually fulfilling the positional requirement.

Over the years many WH and WE players demanded it to actually make those two Abilities ignore armor while FP is active. And the response was always the same. A hard NO! Because of the original concept and wording of FP: ''Your positional attacks CAN BE USED without positional requirement for 10 seconds. Does not affect morale abilities''

Since the Melee Patch and with the Change to ''Snapshot and Throwing Dagger'' now also applying the 40% slow while FP is active, Torment and Agonizing Wound also include ''Feintend Positioning'' instead of only TargetBack. This change was not included in any form of Patch Notes.
It was however quietly noted by several Players quickly while they were doing their usual dummy and construct testings after Changes to their Classes.
If i had to guess i would say that by including S. Shot's and T. Dagger's positional requirement group to also include Feinted Positioning, the same requirement also creaped into Torment and Agonizing Wound's requirement group.

Because it was right after THAT PATCH, that whispers of the word about Torment and AW suddenly being affected by FP made the round in discord voice chats.

[F4llen4ngel]

"''Snapshot and Throwing Dagger'' now also applying the 40% slow while FP is active"

I used it to slow for years too. Before melee patch, and it worked.. or im blind af maining a WE and WH
Or was I always lucky to complete pos req, and that i very much dubt.

[Gunlinger]

"''Snapshot and Throwing Dagger'' now also applying the 40% slow while FP is active"

I used it to slow for years too. Before melee patch, and it worked.. or im blind af maining a WE and WH
Or was I always lucky to complete pos req, and that i very much dubt.

viewtopic.php?t=59937

- Feinted Positioning - Will now also affect Snap Shot

18 12 2025 only since then you can slow with snap S and throwing D by faceshot with FP. Before it was only back and side

[Ksekwlothreftis]

FALSE! Feinted positioning ONLY made it possible to use Abilities that have a positional requirement to be used from any position. To make sure you can use the backside requiring knockdown and the right tree top Finisher on demand. The part that it now also grants the Bonus armor ignore of Torment and Sacrificial Stab while active is a recent addition.

FP always worked for Torment/AW and Flanking too.
Pls dont spread false informations

For the final time now. In the most clear way of articulation.
- Torment and AW never had and do not have any positional requirement to be USABLE.
- Feinted Positioning USED to only make it possible to BE ABLE to use Abilities that have a positional requirement, without actually fulfilling the positional requirement.
- Feinted positioning NEVER made Torment or Agonizing Wound ignore armor while active without actually fulfilling the positional requirement.

Over the years many WH and WE players demanded it to actually make those two Abilities ignore armor while FP is active. And the response was always the same. A hard NO! Because of the original concept and wording of FP: ''Your positional attacks CAN BE USED without positional requirement for 10 seconds. Does not affect morale abilities''

Since the Melee Patch and with the Change to ''Snapshot and Throwing Dagger'' now also applying the 40% slow while FP is active, Torment and Agonizing Wound also include ''Feintend Positioning'' instead of only TargetBack. This change was not included in any form of Patch Notes.
It was however quietly noted by several Players quickly while they were doing their usual dummy and construct testings after Changes to their Classes.
If i had to guess i would say that by including S. Shot's and T. Dagger's positional requirement group to also include Feinted Positioning, the same requirement also creaped into Torment and Agonizing Wound's requirement group.

Because it was right after THAT PATCH, that whispers of the word about Torment and AW suddenly being affected by FP made the round in discord voice chats.

It absolutely worked for Agonizing Wound before the patch but keep spreading misinformation man, both in forums and in game.

[chovudal]

or the final time now. In the most clear way of articulation.
- Torment and AW never had and do not have any positional requirement to be USABLE.
- Feinted Positioning USED to only make it possible to BE ABLE to use Abilities that have a positional requirement, without actually fulfilling the positional requirement.
- Feinted positioning NEVER made Torment or Agonizing Wound ignore armor while active without actually fulfilling the positional requirement.

wtf, pls dont believe whats written, go and test it, i did it and Feined Pos effects Flanking, Torment/WA indeed, thats fact!
pls gyus test it all and dont believe !