WE and WHs changes made the game booring any fixes?

[Gobtar]

23 pages which can be summarised as:

WEs are not OP because:

1) “… it’s not a 1v1 game.”
2) “… 1v1s are so rare.”
3) “… a def WL can beat them.”
4) “… what about OP DPS healers?”
5) “… utility should not be measured in balancing.”
6) “… because WH has BAL.”

None of those seem valid reasons to me and, in fact, either purposefully try to obfuscate the issue or turn it into a “whatabout” strawman.

Didnt realize you were the arbiter of valid reasons. Can you bring up a valid reason why you consider WEs OP so we can debate that then? Some clear boundaries of what makes a class OP or not OP?

This is mostly a whinge thread, with mild PvPing, Most actual points of common ground have gotten buried under the weight of "Nah bruv" reposnses...doubt anyone is taking this seriously at this point.

[Sever1n]

How fast burst WE drop the doll now? Crit+melle power/dmg boost tactics. How much agonizes are hitting and SS? And what is the burst window of stun- agonizes+ SS?

https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/c ... 7,523,9450

And im curious of amout of damage WE can put into target if she opens up with 5stack witchbrew in that build.

[Shogun4138]

How fast burst WE drop the doll now? Crit+melle power/dmg boost tactics. How much agonizes are hitting and SS? And what is the burst window of stun- agonizes+ SS?

You got to make up your mind. Is it the regen WE that killed you all the time or the glass WE. Because now your just exposing your skill issue.

[Sever1n]

You got to make up your mind. Is it the regen WE that killed you all the time or the glass WE. Because now your just exposing your skill issue.

Poison in this mesage quite well mixed with some drugz fantasies. Prob WE roleplay.

Another example of what i was talking about.

[Gunlinger]

You want a solid reason for why so many people view the WE, pre patch as way to strong because of all the stuff they got given for free without any drawback?

Here is your example.
Sunlinger Knight of the Blazing Sun.
81
Full def Souv
unbuffed
Toughness: 744
Initiative: 257
Wounds: 927
Armor: 4260
Block: 40.6%
Critical Hit Rate Reduction: 22.9%

Basic SnB WB build AP/Armor/15%Helbuff

Reikland 2026-02-15
01:34:41

encounter with 2 WEs camping order Warcamp

WITCH_ELF
Killer: Klostein

Deathblow 4505 40%
Lvl 40
RR 84
RED

Agonizing Wound 1954 43.4%
Sacrificial Stab 1591 35.3%
Kiss of Agony 655 14.5%
Auto Attack 305 6.8%
____________________
WITCH_ELF
Assist: Hexi 915 8%
Lvl 40
RR 82
RED

Kiss of Death 452 49.4%
Witchbrew 269 29.4%
Auto Attack 194 21.2%


__________

What does it mean? First off Feinted Positioning was changed to nowadays not just let you use Abilities that have a positional restriction aka hit the back or the side, to also grant the additional positional bonus of Abilities. AKA Argonizing Wound/Torment IGNORING your targets armor.

What does the Witch have that the WH does not?
Swift movements Feinted Positioning cooldown time reduced by 40 sec!.
That is 40 sec less CD of 60 sec CD on an Ability that lasts 10 sec.
EVERY 10 SECONDS the WE and only the WE will IGNORE ALL your ARMOR for 10 SECONDS.

While Feinted positioning is on its 10! sec CD, Sacrificial Stab will double hit you WILE ALSO IGNORING ALL of your ARMOR. AND it will snare you by 40%

That's it. That's all they need to do. 10 sec of stabbing a target that gets denied ALL it's Armor no matter where they position them self.
A finisher on top that will also deny the target any of it's Armor.
And if that is not enough, then the 10 sec 100% armor ignore will be ready again after 10 sec anyway.


The Elephant in the room is Feinted positioning granting the bonus armor ignore of Sacrificial Stab for 10 sec while being able to reduce the time it is not active to 10 sec with a tactic only available to the WE.

And while all the destro players Cry about Atonement tactic on the WH now also granting 25% crit to Abso AND BaL, that are Finishers that require Accusation points and of which 1 has a CD of 10 sec, the WE gets Masterful Treachery tactic that gives them FLAT 15% more dmg for 10 sec After their basic Stealth opener.

BALANCE MY A.

[F4llen4ngel]

You want a solid reason for why so many people view the WE, pre patch as way to strong because of all the stuff they got given for free without any drawback?

Here is your example.
Sunlinger Knight of the Blazing Sun.
81
Full def Souv
unbuffed
Toughness: 744
Initiative: 257
Wounds: 927
Armor: 4260
Block: 40.6%
Critical Hit Rate Reduction: 22.9%

Basic SnB WB build AP/Armor/15%Helbuff

Reikland 2026-02-15
01:34:41

encounter with 2 WEs camping order Warcamp

WITCH_ELF
Killer: Klostein

Deathblow 4505 40%
Lvl 40
RR 84
RED

Agonizing Wound 1954 43.4%
Sacrificial Stab 1591 35.3%
Kiss of Agony 655 14.5%
Auto Attack 305 6.8%
____________________
WITCH_ELF
Assist: Hexi 915 8%
Lvl 40
RR 82
RED

Kiss of Death 452 49.4%
Witchbrew 269 29.4%
Auto Attack 194 21.2%


__________

What does it mean? First off Feinted Positioning was changed to nowadays not just let you use Abilities that have a positional restriction aka hit the back or the side, to also grant the additional positional bonus of Abilities. AKA Argonizing Wound/Torment IGNORING your targets armor.

What does the Witch have that the WH does not?
Swift movements Feinted Positioning cooldown time reduced by 40 sec!.
That is 40 sec less CD of 60 sec CD on an Ability that lasts 10 sec.
EVERY 10 SECONDS the WE and only the WE will IGNORE ALL your ARMOR for 10 SECONDS.

While Feinted positioning is on its 10! sec CD, Sacrificial Stab will double hit you WILE ALSO IGNORING ALL of your ARMOR. AND it will snare you by 40%

That's it. That's all they need to do. 10 sec of stabbing a target that gets denied ALL it's Armor no matter where they position them self.
A finisher on top that will also deny the target any of it's Armor.
And if that is not enough, then the 10 sec 100% armor ignore will be ready again after 10 sec anyway.


The Elephant in the room is Feinted positioning granting the bonus armor ignore of Sacrificial Stab for 10 sec while being able to reduce the time it is not active to 10 sec with a tactic only available to the WE.

And while all the destro players Cry about Atonement tactic on the WH now also granting 25% crit to Abso AND BaL, that are Finishers that require Accusation points and of which 1 has a CD of 10 sec, the WE gets Masterful Treachery tactic that gives them FLAT 15% more dmg for 10 sec After their basic Stealth opener.

BALANCE MY A.

Feinted positioning always worked like this. Removing positional requirement from things like AW, so you can armor ignore face hitting someone risking it will parry.
For SS its not feinted positioning is granting armor ignore, the ability itself. It just removes positional requirement.
Except it got buffed for WEs with a tactic giving 150WS and 150INI and cd reduction from 60 sec to 20sec (old tactic "only" gave cd reduction it was awesome enough anyway). But not for WHs who also have feinted pos every 60 sec.

[Gunlinger]

You want a solid reason for why so many people view the WE, pre patch as way to strong because of all the stuff they got given for free without any drawback?

Here is your example.
Sunlinger Knight of the Blazing Sun.
81
Full def Souv
unbuffed
Toughness: 744
Initiative: 257
Wounds: 927
Armor: 4260
Block: 40.6%
Critical Hit Rate Reduction: 22.9%

Basic SnB WB build AP/Armor/15%Helbuff

Reikland 2026-02-15
01:34:41

encounter with 2 WEs camping order Warcamp

WITCH_ELF
Killer: Klostein

Deathblow 4505 40%
Lvl 40
RR 84
RED

Agonizing Wound 1954 43.4%
Sacrificial Stab 1591 35.3%
Kiss of Agony 655 14.5%
Auto Attack 305 6.8%
____________________
WITCH_ELF
Assist: Hexi 915 8%
Lvl 40
RR 82
RED

Kiss of Death 452 49.4%
Witchbrew 269 29.4%
Auto Attack 194 21.2%


__________

What does it mean? First off Feinted Positioning was changed to nowadays not just let you use Abilities that have a positional restriction aka hit the back or the side, to also grant the additional positional bonus of Abilities. AKA Argonizing Wound/Torment IGNORING your targets armor.

What does the Witch have that the WH does not?
Swift movements Feinted Positioning cooldown time reduced by 40 sec!.
That is 40 sec less CD of 60 sec CD on an Ability that lasts 10 sec.
EVERY 10 SECONDS the WE and only the WE will IGNORE ALL your ARMOR for 10 SECONDS.

While Feinted positioning is on its 10! sec CD, Sacrificial Stab will double hit you WILE ALSO IGNORING ALL of your ARMOR. AND it will snare you by 40%

That's it. That's all they need to do. 10 sec of stabbing a target that gets denied ALL it's Armor no matter where they position them self.
A finisher on top that will also deny the target any of it's Armor.
And if that is not enough, then the 10 sec 100% armor ignore will be ready again after 10 sec anyway.


The Elephant in the room is Feinted positioning granting the bonus armor ignore of Sacrificial Stab for 10 sec while being able to reduce the time it is not active to 10 sec with a tactic only available to the WE.

And while all the destro players Cry about Atonement tactic on the WH now also granting 25% crit to Abso AND BaL, that are Finishers that require Accusation points and of which 1 has a CD of 10 sec, the WE gets Masterful Treachery tactic that gives them FLAT 15% more dmg for 10 sec After their basic Stealth opener.

BALANCE MY A.

Feinted positioning always worked like this. Removing positional requirement from things like AW, so you can armor ignore face hitting someone risking it will parry.
For SS its not feinted positioning is granting armor ignore, the ability itself. It just removes positional requirement.
Except it got buffed for WEs with a tactic giving 150WS and 150INI and cd reduction from 60 sec to 20sec (old tactic "only" gave cd reduction it was awesome enough anyway). But not for WHs who also have feinted pos every 60 sec.

FALSE! Feinted positioning ONLY made it possible to use Abilities that have a positional requirement to be used from any position. To make sure you can use the backside requiring knockdown and the right tree top Finisher on demand. The part that it now also grants the Bonus armor ignore of Torment and Sacrificial Stab while active is a recent addition.

[Yellowemperor]

You want a solid reason for why so many people view the WE, pre patch as way to strong because of all the stuff they got given for free without any drawback?

Here is your example.
Sunlinger Knight of the Blazing Sun.
81
Full def Souv
unbuffed
Toughness: 744
Initiative: 257
Wounds: 927
Armor: 4260
Block: 40.6%
Critical Hit Rate Reduction: 22.9%

Basic SnB WB build AP/Armor/15%Helbuff

Reikland 2026-02-15
01:34:41

encounter with 2 WEs camping order Warcamp

WITCH_ELF
Killer: Klostein

Deathblow 4505 40%
Lvl 40
RR 84
RED

Agonizing Wound 1954 43.4%
Sacrificial Stab 1591 35.3%
Kiss of Agony 655 14.5%
Auto Attack 305 6.8%
____________________
WITCH_ELF
Assist: Hexi 915 8%
Lvl 40
RR 82
RED

Kiss of Death 452 49.4%
Witchbrew 269 29.4%
Auto Attack 194 21.2%


__________

What does it mean? First off Feinted Positioning was changed to nowadays not just let you use Abilities that have a positional restriction aka hit the back or the side, to also grant the additional positional bonus of Abilities. AKA Argonizing Wound/Torment IGNORING your targets armor.

What does the Witch have that the WH does not?
Swift movements Feinted Positioning cooldown time reduced by 40 sec!.
That is 40 sec less CD of 60 sec CD on an Ability that lasts 10 sec.
EVERY 10 SECONDS the WE and only the WE will IGNORE ALL your ARMOR for 10 SECONDS.

While Feinted positioning is on its 10! sec CD, Sacrificial Stab will double hit you WILE ALSO IGNORING ALL of your ARMOR. AND it will snare you by 40%

That's it. That's all they need to do. 10 sec of stabbing a target that gets denied ALL it's Armor no matter where they position them self.
A finisher on top that will also deny the target any of it's Armor.
And if that is not enough, then the 10 sec 100% armor ignore will be ready again after 10 sec anyway.


The Elephant in the room is Feinted positioning granting the bonus armor ignore of Sacrificial Stab for 10 sec while being able to reduce the time it is not active to 10 sec with a tactic only available to the WE.

And while all the destro players Cry about Atonement tactic on the WH now also granting 25% crit to Abso AND BaL, that are Finishers that require Accusation points and of which 1 has a CD of 10 sec, the WE gets Masterful Treachery tactic that gives them FLAT 15% more dmg for 10 sec After their basic Stealth opener.

BALANCE MY A.

Feinted positioning always worked like this. Removing positional requirement from things like AW, so you can armor ignore face hitting someone risking it will parry.
For SS its not feinted positioning is granting armor ignore, the ability itself. It just removes positional requirement.
Except it got buffed for WEs with a tactic giving 150WS and 150INI and cd reduction from 60 sec to 20sec (old tactic "only" gave cd reduction it was awesome enough anyway). But not for WHs who also have feinted pos every 60 sec.

FALSE! Feinted positioning ONLY made it possible to use Abilities that have a positional requirement to be used from any position. To make sure you can use the backside requiring knockdown and the right tree top Finisher on demand. The part that it now also grants the Bonus armor ignore of Torment and Sacrificial Stab while active is a recent addition.

That's 5420 dmg and you have 927 wounds on this build. Either you left the wc with a stack of wound debuffs (lol) or you got fall dmg somehow.

Why the cherry-picking? Here are the other two encounters:

https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com/kill/61597687
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com/kill/61597507

https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... 31cc3ab2ea
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... d04b02d1b6

[Farrul]

In your opinion something is off in balance, not in mine.

Pro gamer huh, clearly we're in the company of gaming royalty... Come on man, you realise how unhinged your posts sound?

If you don't struggle in WE duels, then neither will most people, this game isn't particularly skill centric, you're kidding yourself if you think your special in not struggling with them.

It's not an ''idea'' or an opinion, it's a fact if you understand something about balance. Hence most games would not create a toon like the ''def we'' since the developers there understands the concept would cause balance problems( be it small scale issue).

I realize that after several posts ( and different threads) you're trying to reduce balance issues to ''i can teach you'' if you got problems'', i think you mean well but i had to clarify that your help is not needed because there is no issue there on my behalf, will you finally get it that is the real question( after several posts this was getting really annoying, it's a devious way of making yourself look superior to others and avoiding the arguments made about Def WE toolkit/utility).

Hence you keep referring to a ''solo meta'' without actually realizing what solo means( solo does not mean 1vs1 and your 1v1s meta is irrelevant for this balance discussion per Topic). Question is , will you get what most of us are discussing or shall you run in circles without getting anywhere?

Farrul dont waste your time. Clearly he will spam same and same things to the end of world without realizing what u talk about. Or maybe hes doing it on purpose.

Mods this topic went in circles, prob there will not be any new info about WE/WH, and some people started personal targeting because they run out of arguments.

I mean i dont mind a discussion as long as people know how to stay ''civil. A little bit of chewing resistance is not a bad thing although i have to admit i do not see much hope in this specific case, but we'll see.

[nat3s]

No, it's not a fact, it's your opinion.