WE and WHs changes made the game booring any fixes?

[salazarn]

My point is valid wh and we are the most played mdps classes by a wide margin rr60+

The roam, small scale scene is becoming less every single day pretty much the same way scenario scene was destroyed

Healing is not strong you should try playing one.

There may be too many wh/ welf in lakes.

But healers are definately OP in RoR

[Bozzax]

My point is valid wh and we are the most played mdps classes by a wide margin rr60+

Healing isnyto strong yoy should try playing one

My healer RP walks through lakes and lol at DPS as I detaunt them...for fun. Healing is strong, if you dont think so, you either are bad at healing, need better healers, or only play the game through the thin lens of zerg vs zerg. I constantly delete and remake healers to play in T1-T2 just so people have healers in SCs. Try again.

You managed to summon them

[F4llen4ngel]

Man pls stop spam yor def options like you open America over and over, we got your point and well aware that defencive builds exist. First thing def WE do when she met counterbuild trouble is put you to stugger and go away. We talking how overloaded her kit in general and not discussing whos the the king on of the hill of duels. Prob any normal dps WP eat alive any WE and ive even met regen versions of them far surpasing def WE in terms of annoyance because guilty soul now is basically infinite wirchbrew, but only def WE have options to became toxic tank that can ignore offencive stats, pick her figths, reengage on demand, and be decent bad news for anyone she faceroll on. https://www.twitch.tv/rtixoxod/clip/Cru ... zG7qHB65Fs
Thats regular def nonregen WE boxing def lion that you claim can kill several of them. He almost killed WE in another duel, but thats not a riposte regenbot WE that can play same parry games as your def gear builds on other classes. Imagine he will come in hard counter lion build.

We talking here about WE and WH. If you have problems with other classes overperforming then why balance proposals is empty? If RA build is dead where is feedback from WEs why its dead? Instead of giving info and ask for fixes of both broken and overperforming things people instead smokeskreen obviosly toxic things that was discussed and asked for nerf for years. Nice job, nothing to add.

Look at the duels between Solater (def WE) and Altashir (def WL), not even close, def WL stomps def WE easily:

https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com/kill/59737223

Also Kovoo is not def built lol, perfect example of what im saying.

You obviously have to look across the board when balancing, if def WE is nerfed as you would like, then you'll just see an army of def WLs, Flowing/DG/Parry WHs and dps RPs. Some of us play for the meta. Heaven forbid we return to AM/Shaman Online like 2 years ago! There's a reason why AM was 1st, 2nd and 3rd in the duel tournament not long ago!

There's more variety than ever, game is spot-on for balance imo. Each class has its cool toys, slayers got Rampage back, Chops retained GTDC, WE/WH made distinct and cool, WE with pounce, WH with ranged kiting (and you should be kiting with Flowing Accusations now!).

As much as I enjoy def WE, glass cannon WH is my main, way more fun, but I am working on my def WH set currently which I think will outperform my WE considerably...

Join the solo roamers Discord and learn the game, annoying enough that some solo players feel compelled not to share the knowledge.

Checked the solo fights between A and S, 22 v 16 A (WL) won, they basically hunted each other the same day many times, with and without potions, minmax dmg being 8k to 21k (!) for a solo kill dealt by a def player on both sides.

Checked my fellow guildy K vs S, solo encounters: 2 v 12 S (WE) won.
So stating
"Look at the duels between Solater (def WE) and Altashir (def WL), not even close, def WL stomps def WE easily:"
is nowhere near the reality.

[vanbuinen77]

Def wl got super buffed in dps patch

[Farrul]

def WE isn't close to the best 1v1 class at present.

That's not the point and it never has been, please stop derailing with the 1vs1 arguments already it's getting old and tiresome as you have been told multiple times already.

If the argument to nerf a def WE was purely based on one WE vs one (xx class insert) i don't think she would need ''a fix'' considering there are many broken stuff as you have mentioned yourself. But this is not a 1vs1 game and it shows in the pollution of WEs ( of course WH, might need to nerf Bal tactic a bit here).

The reason ''def WE'''' is OP is because of her overall toolkit, it all comes down to stealth in the end and how that combines with the rest of the stuff.

Hence, never ever should a class with stealth be allowed to have a ''def'' build like the current WE middle tree makes possible with the broken stuff added recently. In this game the gave stealth classes absurd tools like stagger 6s+ backflip( on a relative low CD) so its even more important that it is balanced with this in mind. Now in the latest patch the devs went crazy and gave her a 150 wounds debuff( in this same problematic middle tree) and of course the 2 x pounce thing.

This proves the balanceteam have no idea of what they are doing here and are listening to the wrong players when making these changes. To put it into perspective, in other games developers would have reworked this WE nonsense a long time ago, here it remains since i must say, neglect or ignorans about how to properly balance an archetype of this kind)( stealth assasssin).

Of course everyone is going to play WE after that in the lakes since the utility is just absurd from a balance point of view, highly rewarding and super toxic. So once again, stop with the 1VS1 and using your WL as an example.

WL def does not have the element of surprise, it won't gank you 4vs1 or roam around evading warbands invisible, it does in fact not even exist on the map compared to WE so it is highly irrelevant overall in this balance discussion.

[nat3s]

Man pls stop spam yor def options like you open America over and over, we got your point and well aware that defencive builds exist. First thing def WE do when she met counterbuild trouble is put you to stugger and go away. We talking how overloaded her kit in general and not discussing whos the the king on of the hill of duels. Prob any normal dps WP eat alive any WE and ive even met regen versions of them far surpasing def WE in terms of annoyance because guilty soul now is basically infinite wirchbrew, but only def WE have options to became toxic tank that can ignore offencive stats, pick her figths, reengage on demand, and be decent bad news for anyone she faceroll on. https://www.twitch.tv/rtixoxod/clip/Cru ... zG7qHB65Fs
Thats regular def nonregen WE boxing def lion that you claim can kill several of them. He almost killed WE in another duel, but thats not a riposte regenbot WE that can play same parry games as your def gear builds on other classes. Imagine he will come in hard counter lion build.

We talking here about WE and WH. If you have problems with other classes overperforming then why balance proposals is empty? If RA build is dead where is feedback from WEs why its dead? Instead of giving info and ask for fixes of both broken and overperforming things people instead smokeskreen obviosly toxic things that was discussed and asked for nerf for years. Nice job, nothing to add.

Look at the duels between Solater (def WE) and Altashir (def WL), not even close, def WL stomps def WE easily:

https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com/kill/59737223

Also Kovoo is not def built lol, perfect example of what im saying.

You obviously have to look across the board when balancing, if def WE is nerfed as you would like, then you'll just see an army of def WLs, Flowing/DG/Parry WHs and dps RPs. Some of us play for the meta. Heaven forbid we return to AM/Shaman Online like 2 years ago! There's a reason why AM was 1st, 2nd and 3rd in the duel tournament not long ago!

There's more variety than ever, game is spot-on for balance imo. Each class has its cool toys, slayers got Rampage back, Chops retained GTDC, WE/WH made distinct and cool, WE with pounce, WH with ranged kiting (and you should be kiting with Flowing Accusations now!).

As much as I enjoy def WE, glass cannon WH is my main, way more fun, but I am working on my def WH set currently which I think will outperform my WE considerably...

Join the solo roamers Discord and learn the game, annoying enough that some solo players feel compelled not to share the knowledge.

Checked the solo fights between A and S, 22 v 16 A (WL) won, they basically hunted each other the same day many times, with and without potions, minmax dmg being 8k to 21k (!) for a solo kill dealt by a def player on both sides.

Checked my fellow guildy K vs S, solo encounters: 2 v 12 S (WE) won.
So stating
"Look at the duels between Solater (def WE) and Altashir (def WL), not even close, def WL stomps def WE easily:"
is nowhere near the reality.

You're comparing A in off build there from a while back. If you compare recent fights in def build, its clear.

[nat3s]

def WE isn't close to the best 1v1 class at present.

The reason ''def WE'''' is OP is because of her overall toolkit, it all comes down to stealth in the end and how that combines with the rest of the stuff.

You argue that me pointing out that def WE isn't OP through providing 1v1 analysis isn't valid, so why continue with the "def WE is OP" train of thought? Seems you're accepting it isn't OP then? Unless you think def WE is OP in WBs / 6mans?

[Farrul]

You argue that me pointing out that def WE isn't OP through providing 1v1 analysis isn't valid, so why continue with the "def WE is OP" train of thought? Seems you're accepting it isn't OP then? Unless you think def WE is OP in WBs / 6mans?

Keyword: utility - toolkit and combination with a def build). Read the post again and if you still don't get it, not sure what else i can add to explain.

P.S. In case you truly didn't understand, ill add this before logging off for the evening.

The ''OP'' of this type of WE comes in whatever situation/context this utility-tookit comes into play, which is everywhere small scale related. This could be alone by herself or thogeter with other WE'S( grouped or not) and of course most likely in random fights which is the most prevalent type of battle except for large scale organized WB.

In fact 1VS1 are so rare on this server i wouldn't use them ever as an argument for balance except if through the 1v1 OP stuff are being revealed( yes devs have nerfed on this basis previously it seems). In this case that applies to the Def WE since she can control any 1VS1 through her utility. Attack when favorable, disengage when not, the ''get out of jail free cards'' this spec has is not balanced and makes it an almost brain-dead no risk to play.

That's where the WH is balanced(arguably) since the utility to escape is there but the ability to sustain damage is not(for very long) since he is squishy besides a few CD. Once you combine these two you get something which obviously breaks the archetype balance of a stealthed assassin spec.

Hence this may seem harsh, but a ''def we'' should not have stealth at all, in this case they could have a tree dedicated to being a medium/tanky melee brawler but the ''Prowl'' ability would be disabled. That actually could be really interesting as a concept and add real diversity to a class (of course it would need to be reworked, obviously to fit the playstyle better).

As a final note, her offensive utility is also too strong as of this new patch, 2 x pounce on a tanky stealthed platform alongside the wound debuff adding to the already powerful debuffs that tree offers. It's balance insanity how the devs went through with this.

[nat3s]

You argue that me pointing out that def WE isn't OP through providing 1v1 analysis isn't valid, so why continue with the "def WE is OP" train of thought? Seems you're accepting it isn't OP then? Unless you think def WE is OP in WBs / 6mans?

Keyword: utility - toolkit and combination with a def build). Read the post again and if you still don't get it, not sure what else i can add to explain.

P.S. In case you truly didn't understand, ill add this before logging off for the evening.

The ''OP'' of this type of WE comes in whatever situation/context this utility-tookit comes into play, which is everywhere small scale related. This could be alone by herself or thogeter with other WE'S( grouped or not) and of course most likely in random fights which is the most prevalent type of battle except for large scale organized WB.

In fact 1VS1 are so rare on this server i wouldn't use them ever as an argument for balance except if through the 1v1 OP stuff are being revealed( yes devs have nerfed on this basis previously it seems). In this case that applies to the Def WE since she can control any 1VS1 through her utility. Attack when favorable, disengage when not, the ''get out of jail free cards'' this spec has is not balanced and makes it an almost brain-dead no risk to play.

That's where the WH is balanced(arguably) since the utility to escape is there but the ability to sustain damage is not(for very long) since he is squishy besides a few CD. Once you combine these two you get something which obviously breaks the archetype balance of a stealthed assassin spec.

Hence this may seem harsh, but a ''def we'' should not have stealth at all, in this case they could have a tree dedicated to being a medium/tanky melee brawler but the ''Prowl'' ability would be disabled. That actually could be really interesting as a concept and add real diversity to a class (of course it would need to be reworked, obviously to fit the playstyle better).

This notion of balancing by utility is daft, how do you measure the success of utility if its not kill power? WoW vanilla paladin had all the utility in the world, but was awful in pvp. For me, the obvious question should be, does that utility deliver results? As things stand, def WE is 4th in the solo meta imo.

You talk about escape ability and suggest WH is balanced, but WH has more escape utility than a def WE, which doesn't use sprint elixir where a BAL WH will. A WH also does considerably more sustain dps, by miles. I have 80 WH and WE, WH is my main. I've played both for a good 50 hours post mdps patch, they were made distinct, BAL + Blessed Blade and Flowing Accusations spec is insanely good, can spam ranged Absolutions with 60% crit chance and 60%+ armour pen over and over with Incendiary Shot to fill in the gaps from range when Flowing Accusations doesn't proc. Can get 5-6 ranged Absolutions off each critting for 1k+. That's post opener with a 4 accusation BAL. Crazy good.

Your conclusions are laughable. Removing stealth from def WE? That would just make it a lower damage more vulnerable WL/Mara with poor group utility, no pull, no armour debuff, no crit buff, no snare, no root. Not to mention the thematic inconsistency. Def WE needs 1v1s, it's incredibly weak in anything other than a 1v1, it simply wouldn't be used without stealth. Very odd.

[Sever1n]

Nickname of your wh? Wanna see how insanely good that build is. Losing a lot of things for just abso spam sounds really weird, it means no TRI proc, str talis 6 sov build, that look like oriented for dueling melles in long long semikiting casino absospam dance. Dunno how it helps against any ranged oponent, and why trade it for dragon gun/bal build when u can just chain repell+m1 with denial of oponents m1 if you need duel melles. Only thing new mech added is 30ft 10 sec cd posibility to shoot, can say its pretty meh in grouplay, and feels like bad joke when we asked normal snare to stick to those cursed kiting shams, zeals, maguses etc. We suppose to counterkite them with 30ft 10sec skillcombo or smtng? Comparing to SSburst potentional, wound cutter and gapclossing damage skill with snare, phys venehemed blades, agonise spam tactic this feels really weird unnecessary change, but few people say its for some reason OP, and im still failing to see that OP part so feel free to convince me. On top we lost all burst in bal/healdebuff spec tnx to nerf/moving seal.