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[SW] whats the point of SW?

Swordmaster, Shadow Warrior, White Lion, Archmage
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gebajger
Posts: 209

Re: [SW] whats the point of SW?

Post#31 » Tue Aug 10, 2021 7:36 pm

A bit of commitment goes a long way (BHA is really not that hard to decode).

If you want to be successful on any kiter class while leveling up, you need to be able to use all your combat skills while running in any direction, without hesitation.
Get familiar with the basics (detaunt dos and don'ts, same with guard, and the CCs)
You also have to know what your enemy can and cannot do.
This takes some time.
You need to keep your gear at an acceptable level, use at least green talis (blue ones aren't that expensive either), and at least armor potion, if you can get it at a reasonable price. You don't have to have BiS in every slot, but don't expect too much pwnage with green gear 8 levels below your own.

Once get the grasp of it, you'll have tons of fun on your sw
Rioz

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Thorondir
Posts: 71

Re: [SW] whats the point of SW?

Post#32 » Tue Aug 10, 2021 11:40 pm

Arthem wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 7:57 am BHA offers the masses a simple play style that they seem happy with so you can't really argue if they are enjoying it.

Does anyone really enjoy spamming stacking BHA? I am genuinely curious if anyone really likes that play style because it bores me to tears.

I am fairly new back and still digesting the changes to the class. Seems like a lot of capability has been traded in for making the class more accessible. For instance, the stationary restriction on eye shot traded off against it being unlocked from skirm stance.

The potential of the class seems pretty limited in the current iteration.

Skirmish still seems to lack a real punch. Numbers can be good but actual effectiveness really isn't, single target or aoe (outside of forts).

Scout can kill steal all day for inflated DBs but really not very effective against competent opposition. Sure, the m2 one shot fester days had to go, but the low budget doom bolt spam led off with a 4GCD dot stack hard "tell" that replaced it is pretty sad. It is also funny to see a return of the locked in 65ft shadow sting - history repeats itself.

Maybe melee is different, but Arthem is spot on with the root/snare break being tied to an M2, no charge and weird animation of shadow step. Add to that stat potions and renown point ranged crit and melee crit not converting and no melee snare and you can never truly run as a "hybrid".

Now you just cruise around spamming BHA fluff damage and hoping for the best. Stance dancing is mostly dead unless you get melee trained and need assault armour. Skill cap and potential is at an all time low (not that it was ever particularly high).

Justina
Posts: 65

Re: [SW] whats the point of SW?

Post#33 » Wed Aug 11, 2021 12:44 am

SWs are a bit of a mess. Too many people doctored around on it. The result is what we have now.

For competitive play Assault is the only way to go. All ranged builds just don't do it. The damage is too weak. Too many cooldowns, too low burst, too squishy.

I've played around on my SW for a long time with different builds to max out damage but it is just not there. Sure you can run around and burst down people in bad gear or people from keep walls that keep standing there but on any competent enemy you will fail as scout or skirmisher.

As scout you have to use two tactics just to make fester work useful. Then it still have a cooldown, no crit bonus and on guarded good healers/mdps you hit for like 600-800 non crit. That's like one instant heal from a zealot...

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Sabertooth
Posts: 27

Re: [SW] whats the point of SW?

Post#34 » Wed Aug 11, 2021 8:03 am

it is the shadow of what it was before

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Fenris78
Posts: 787

Re: [SW] whats the point of SW?

Post#35 » Wed Aug 11, 2021 9:53 am

Justina wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 12:44 am SWs are a bit of a mess. Too many people doctored around on it. The result is what we have now.

For competitive play Assault is the only way to go. All ranged builds just don't do it. The damage is too weak. Too many cooldowns, too low burst, too squishy.

I've played around on my SW for a long time with different builds to max out damage but it is just not there. Sure you can run around and burst down people in bad gear or people from keep walls that keep standing there but on any competent enemy you will fail as scout or skirmisher.

As scout you have to use two tactics just to make fester work useful. Then it still have a cooldown, no crit bonus and on guarded good healers/mdps you hit for like 600-800 non crit. That's like one instant heal from a zealot...
Agreed, SW is a mess at this point.

The fact you need 2 mandatory tactics (none of them is core wich means 2-4 more skill points to put in trees) for every spec makes the class very bad, while SH can enjoy the versatility provided by pet (no cd, added passive damage and cc), the SW simply cannot do that anymore.

Assault + skirmish spec have been killed when the ranged kd was mover to scout tree, so it means you have to waste 5 points into scout for all specs just to get the mandatory skill.

You can do scout + skirmish (hopefully shadow step is now core, meager consolation), but it needs 2 tactics to make skirm works (aoe arrows + arpen tactics), while the healdebuff perma 65ft is simply bad, and scout needing festering arrow you also need at least the resist bypass tactic, and you still cannot chain fell the weak + flanking shot without stance dancing (while the SH doesnt need = far greater burst).

THe OP speaking from a level 15 experience, I can relate to that knowing no class are equal in t1-t2 (some are painful to play until level 40), but you have to know the SW got a too hard learning curve anyway, and even by knowing everything, you simply will have too much of a mess to sort out everytime, just to be remotely viable as a hybrid dps.

Sure you can still go to assault stance and enjoy your few more seconds of survival, but when you are focused the result will be the same without being guarded and heavy healed with a papermade 50 toughness SW...

So either get used to the mess of this class, or go for other mdps (WH, slayer or WL) who can be far more enjoyable (and needed) Order side.

ashton007
Posts: 380

Re: [SW] whats the point of SW?

Post#36 » Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:13 pm

Wraithedge wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:32 am
Hodds wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:34 am
Wraithedge wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:59 am

Geshundtite
you're allowed to be a sarcastic jackass, but i cant?
Whoa whoa, decaffeinate friend. I have no idea at all what you are saying with "BHA" and I was just being funny. Clearly you didn't think it was that funny. But no need to get hostile. Maybe save it for the server.

I really am wondering what tack to take when the game presents so many superior ranged classes.

I can give about a three second fight and some RR to anyone I come across. So far it looks like the only way to do anything is wait for someone else to do something and then add on and pretend I am haveing an effect.

I have started using assault stance to see if that help me survive a little longer. I have pretty much given up on winning any fight at all. I just spend my three seconds trying to take off some red so the next guy can do something.

Trying to stay at range is ridiculous, marauders can hit me from many meters away repeatedly and hard, chosen bog me down with as much as an axe throw. There is no getting away and it doesn't matter anyway because that Magus or the Sorc or the SH will just serial murder me at range.

So I'm thinking assault is my only shot. Get in there and try to land a big hit before respawn. Feels bad running 5 and 8 deep on death penalties but I feel like there is no other option. There is no winning move just losing moves that maybe help someone else a tiny bit.

Also feels bad watching that lone destro ambling across the field knowing I can do nothing at all to them except give them rr.
Sounds like you need some futile strikes mate. Also get good at kiting, if you see them running towards you at all, start to pre kite

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Arthem
Posts: 253

Re: [SW] whats the point of SW?

Post#37 » Fri Aug 13, 2021 12:01 am

Thorondir wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 11:40 pm
Arthem wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 7:57 am BHA offers the masses a simple play style that they seem happy with so you can't really argue if they are enjoying it.

Does anyone really enjoy spamming stacking BHA? I am genuinely curious if anyone really likes that play style because it bores me to tears.

I am fairly new back and still digesting the changes to the class. Seems like a lot of capability has been traded in for making the class more accessible. For instance, the stationary restriction on eye shot traded off against it being unlocked from skirm stance.

The potential of the class seems pretty limited in the current iteration.

Skirmish still seems to lack a real punch. Numbers can be good but actual effectiveness really isn't, single target or aoe (outside of forts).

Scout can kill steal all day for inflated DBs but really not very effective against competent opposition. Sure, the m2 one shot fester days had to go, but the low budget doom bolt spam led off with a 4GCD dot stack hard "tell" that replaced it is pretty sad. It is also funny to see a return of the locked in 65ft shadow sting - history repeats itself.

Maybe melee is different, but Arthem is spot on with the root/snare break being tied to an M2, no charge and weird animation of shadow step. Add to that stat potions and renown point ranged crit and melee crit not converting and no melee snare and you can never truly run as a "hybrid".

Now you just cruise around spamming BHA fluff damage and hoping for the best. Stance dancing is mostly dead unless you get melee trained and need assault armour. Skill cap and potential is at an all time low (not that it was ever particularly high).
Thorondir the legend is here and he knows.

I mean you know as well as anyone that the class will not feel good. The BHA stacking is really bad, it makes it boring to play. But yes it seems puggies love it. I think it was a mistake to put it on the BHA ability (I understand that SW needed some aoe though), because that was an essential tool in all specs and they took it away forcing to be stacked in order to hit hard or to aoe.

Skirm is horrible for dmg now. Its simply an aoe spec for cities or open rvr. Unlike squig who's run and gun spec is hitting hard, sw best dmg are tied in Scout and Assault. Eye shot being tied to stand still was just clearly a bad move given SW already lacked mobility in other areas compared to squig.

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Arthem
Posts: 253

Re: [SW] whats the point of SW?

Post#38 » Fri Aug 13, 2021 12:19 am

Thorondir wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 11:40 pm
Maybe melee is different, but Arthem is spot on with the root/snare break being tied to an M2, no charge and weird animation of shadow step. Add to that stat potions and renown point ranged crit and melee crit not converting and no melee snare and you can never truly run as a "hybrid".
The problem ASW face as well atm is the change to Doks with their shield spec adding more damage in the melee train which exposes the SW lack of aoe mitigation and escape tools compared to other melee. SW also is a mostly fitting in with niche comp with WL, but it could fit in more comps if its armor debuff was allowed in melee like its mirror class Mara. It would let ASW play with slayers and WH better.

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Thorondir
Posts: 71

Re: [SW] whats the point of SW?

Post#39 » Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:35 pm

Arthem wrote: Fri Aug 13, 2021 12:01 am Thorondir the legend is here and he knows.

I mean you know as well as anyone that the class will not feel good. The BHA stacking is really bad, it makes it boring to play. But yes it seems puggies love it. I think it was a mistake to put it on the BHA ability (I understand that SW needed some aoe though), because that was an essential tool in all specs and they took it away forcing to be stacked in order to hit hard or to aoe.

Skirm is horrible for dmg now. Its simply an aoe spec for cities or open rvr. Unlike squig who's run and gun spec is hitting hard, sw best dmg are tied in Scout and Assault. Eye shot being tied to stand still was just clearly a bad move given SW already lacked mobility in other areas compared to squig.
Thanks, but maybe more "myth" than "legend" these days.

I've been stubbornly trying to play various single target scout builds for the most part, but you are right it is not good. FA or EE spam, doesn't seem to matter, the class lacks anything near the punch it used to have and the heal debuff is no longer reliably useful.

Fully stacked up I managed a 4k crit Fester on a target dummy in ideal circumstances. Relied on overstacking BS to 1200, No Respite and Steady Aim for a 4s cast within 20ft. It will never happen in a real fight.

I am also convinced that with the AP costs, Glass Arrow results in a loss of DPS in most instances.

The best success I had with scout was actually running the dumbest build I have ever put together: expert skirm / no respite fester spec. Half-way viable against pugs if you bring a dedicated guard and eagle eye on the run is at least entertaining.

I honestly couldn't figure out what else you would ever use expert skirmisher for now that LA is not a thing. We get 3 cast time reducers (expert skirm, focused mind and sov 8p) for a class that has only one ability longer than the GCD? Maybe if Steady Aim didn't trigger GCD and could be reliably used with focused mind it might be viable.

All of that and where does it bring you to? Scout is dead (unlike anything you shoot at).

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Arthem
Posts: 253

Re: [SW] whats the point of SW?

Post#40 » Thu Aug 19, 2021 4:00 am

Thorondir wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:35 pm
I've been stubbornly trying to play various single target scout builds for the most part, but you are right it is not good. FA or EE spam, doesn't seem to matter, the class lacks anything near the punch it used to have and the heal debuff is no longer reliably useful.

Fully stacked up I managed a 4k crit Fester on a target dummy in ideal circumstances. Relied on overstacking BS to 1200, No Respite and Steady Aim for a 4s cast within 20ft. It will never happen in a real fight.

I am also convinced that with the AP costs, Glass Arrow results in a loss of DPS in most instances.

The best success I had with scout was actually running the dumbest build I have ever put together: expert skirm / no respite fester spec. Half-way viable against pugs if you bring a dedicated guard and eagle eye on the run is at least entertaining.

As you said Glass Arrows totally cuts off sustained damage so you have to slowly methodically burst. Its a big yikes that you're spending AP twice to use an ability while the dmg proc has an internal cooldown. This was one of the many nerfs SW got when they 'buffed' them. Other nerfs include RKD to Scout tree, lowering BHA dmg on 1x, Flanking shot dmg reduction, shadow nerfs on FA (no patch notes but doing 25% less dmg randomly). The only buff was FTW spirit dmg with VoN.

Thorondir wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:35 pm I honestly couldn't figure out what else you would ever use expert skirmisher for now that LA is not a thing. We get 3 cast time reducers (expert skirm, focused mind and sov 8p) for a class that has only one ability longer than the GCD? Maybe if Steady Aim didn't trigger GCD and could be reliably used with focused mind it might be viable.
Yeah you don't really use ES at all. You use the No Respite for skirmisher AoE ironically that's the old ES. AoE SW is ideal for running with the blob and having the tank guard them who usually swaps to heals so when they do that you can remove yourself from the blob briefly and just do a bit less dmg. Unfortunately its pretty much fluff dmg but with Pierce defenses and warlord armor debuff proc you're at least being useful. Sadly we can't use FM for dmg because we need it to break free sometimes.

One way to play the old SW style in a really fun way is to just play Squig Herder. They've been perfectly balanced in the skirmisher style while SW is like a confused Engy.

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