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[WL] Questionable Tactics

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Stophy22
Posts: 444

[WL] Questionable Tactics

Post#1 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:13 pm

So there are a few tactics in a few trees that really don't have any use. It would be interesting to see these tactics get some attention. I'm not talking about tactics that people view as useless (like 1st tactic in the 3 mara spec trees) but tactics that are actually useless. For example:

WL has two,
Threatening Distraction and Stalker.

These tactics lower threat generated on the player and lion respectively.

Now lets not kid ourselves... These tactics hold 0 value in any PVE situation and PVP situation. Lets say you do decide to run the war lion one, there is no fight that the lion is going to take aggro over the actual player. And lets say you decide to run the player one, well you have detaunt and guard respectively when running any Gunbad/Crypts&Tunnels/Bastion Stair.

If these tactics hold such value to *certain individuals I request that they be moved to core like all the other "subtlety" and "menace" related tactics. I glanced over the other classes in career builder and I don't believe any other classes have such atrocious tactics dealing with PVE threat in their spec-able paths. Threating Distraction is a 7pt tactic too...

So I made this post with kind of the intention for an open discussion on what should be put in place of these tactics, to start it off I noticed WL is one of the few Melee classes without an incoming heal debuff. This is unique in some regards as he does have an outgoing heal-debuff, something WH/Slayer and their mirrors have, but those classes also got the luxury of having an incoming HD as well. I propose that that Threatening Distraction could add a 50% incoming HD to WL's ability Fey Illusion. I know most WL's have Guile on their 2hand Subj/Fort weapons but AOE fluff debuff kinda belongs to Knights and Chosens with their HD Aura.
Spoiler:
The reason behind the ability Fey Illusion is because if we put it on Thin The Heard you have an ability that applies an outgoing and incoming healdebuff in 1 gcd and that might be considered a little too much, for some. If you put it on Shattering Blow a lot of white lions don't use this ability anymore with the damage reduction to it in recent patches as it used to be a very hard hitter in the normal rotation.

I'd like to know others thoughts about giving WL a Heal Debuff, right now slayer just holds so much favoritism as "order's Mdps". When you compare choppas and marauders they both put out and there is no clear "best" but WL vs Slayer although it is opinion at the end of the day most lean toward slayers because of ID, Retribution, Rampage, and Shattered Limbs.
For Stalker this is located in the tree of Guardian, which has to deal with the pet. This is the 1st tactic in the tree so when comparing it to other classes of similarity and recent forum complaints I came up with this idea: Your Lion now takes 50% less damage.
Spoiler:
Now reasoning on this change is because a lot of people complain about, "My war lion dies too much." or "Can't use war lion in rvr because its too squishy." Now in the past there was this ridiculous patch that made it so the war lion took like immensely reduced damage from anything AOE and it just made it unkillable, but a lot of players were able to use it in instances of large aoe damage. With the proposed change I'm hoping to appeal to the players who want to use their lion in city environments or just find it hard to keep the lion alive. Maybe players want to try running pack hunting in city they would have to spec into guardian to grab this tactic for increased survivability on the lion. Guardian is also a pretty decent solo-roam build that is heavily reliant on the lion and I could not only see myself using this tactic if I was ever playing alone in the guardian spec because of how important Leonine frenzy+Brutal Pounce is to actually down a target. So it holds value in the normal spec of the tree and alternative specs players could *try on WL.
Obviously if values are too high they can be tweaked but these tactics just make me sigh every time I look at them when im speccing around and testing out new things on the class. If you don't like the proposals lets try to be critical with things rather than responses akin to, "You're dumb, L2P noob." Explain your case as to why these proposals don't make sense and lets try to have a constructive conversation! This thread isn't necessarily a proposal to change things but to have a conversation on something that should be changed, so what would we as a community want to see it changed to.
[2 Weeks]/[Definitely Not Heretics]
Kuro Mara R8x
Bunji DoK R6x
Kurodon BG R8x
Curo Whitelion R8x
Scryptmar WP R6x
Aiero Swordwizard R5x

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arorwne
Suspended
Posts: 235

Re: [WL] Questionable Tactics

Post#2 » Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:45 am

Stophy22 wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:13 pm So there are a few tactics in a few trees that really don't have any use. It would be interesting to see these tactics get some attention. I'm not talking about tactics that people view as useless (like 1st tactic in the 3 mara spec trees) but tactics that are actually useless. For example:

WL has two,
Threatening Distraction and Stalker.

These tactics lower threat generated on the player and lion respectively.

Now lets not kid ourselves... These tactics hold 0 value in any PVE situation and PVP situation. Lets say you do decide to run the war lion one, there is no fight that the lion is going to take aggro over the actual player. And lets say you decide to run the player one, well you have detaunt and guard respectively when running any Gunbad/Crypts&Tunnels/Bastion Stair.

If these tactics hold such value to *certain individuals I request that they be moved to core like all the other "subtlety" and "menace" related tactics. I glanced over the other classes in career builder and I don't believe any other classes have such atrocious tactics dealing with PVE threat in their spec-able paths. Threating Distraction is a 7pt tactic too...

So I made this post with kind of the intention for an open discussion on what should be put in place of these tactics, to start it off I noticed WL is one of the few Melee classes without an incoming heal debuff. This is unique in some regards as he does have an outgoing heal-debuff, something WH/Slayer and their mirrors have, but those classes also got the luxury of having an incoming HD as well. I propose that that Threatening Distraction could add a 50% incoming HD to WL's ability Fey Illusion. I know most WL's have Guile on their 2hand Subj/Fort weapons but AOE fluff debuff kinda belongs to Knights and Chosens with their HD Aura.
Spoiler:
The reason behind the ability Fey Illusion is because if we put it on Thin The Heard you have an ability that applies an outgoing and incoming healdebuff in 1 gcd and that might be considered a little too much, for some. If you put it on Shattering Blow a lot of white lions don't use this ability anymore with the damage reduction to it in recent patches as it used to be a very hard hitter in the normal rotation.

I'd like to know others thoughts about giving WL a Heal Debuff, right now slayer just holds so much favoritism as "order's Mdps". When you compare choppas and marauders they both put out and there is no clear "best" but WL vs Slayer although it is opinion at the end of the day most lean toward slayers because of ID, Retribution, Rampage, and Shattered Limbs.
For Stalker this is located in the tree of Guardian, which has to deal with the pet. This is the 1st tactic in the tree so when comparing it to other classes of similarity and recent forum complaints I came up with this idea: Your Lion now takes 50% less damage.
Spoiler:
Now reasoning on this change is because a lot of people complain about, "My war lion dies too much." or "Can't use war lion in rvr because its too squishy." Now in the past there was this ridiculous patch that made it so the war lion took like immensely reduced damage from anything AOE and it just made it unkillable, but a lot of players were able to use it in instances of large aoe damage. With the proposed change I'm hoping to appeal to the players who want to use their lion in city environments or just find it hard to keep the lion alive. Maybe players want to try running pack hunting in city they would have to spec into guardian to grab this tactic for increased survivability on the lion. Guardian is also a pretty decent solo-roam build that is heavily reliant on the lion and I could not only see myself using this tactic if I was ever playing alone in the guardian spec because of how important Leonine frenzy+Brutal Pounce is to actually down a target. So it holds value in the normal spec of the tree and alternative specs players could *try on WL.
Obviously if values are too high they can be tweaked but these tactics just make me sigh every time I look at them when im speccing around and testing out new things on the class. If you don't like the proposals lets try to be critical with things rather than responses akin to, "You're dumb, L2P noob." Explain your case as to why these proposals don't make sense and lets try to have a constructive conversation! This thread isn't necessarily a proposal to change things but to have a conversation on something that should be changed, so what would we as a community want to see it changed to.
Threatening Distraction is actually pretty good for solo PvE, especially here where War Lion's Roar(Taunt) don't really work properly. On live it was meh, but still something to consider. A niche Tactic, but very good at its niche. Much better than Stalker at any rate.

Stalker, otoh, is pure garbage. When do you want your Lion to have such a low threat? Solo? Lol no. Group? Maybe. But then again...what is "Baited Strike", again? You can simply use that 2-3x in a group and Lion's aggro is taken care of. It's pure, unmitigated catastrophe and should be changed.

User avatar
Stophy22
Posts: 444

Re: [WL] Questionable Tactics

Post#3 » Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:48 am

Spoiler:
arorwne wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:45 am
Stophy22 wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:13 pm So there are a few tactics in a few trees that really don't have any use. It would be interesting to see these tactics get some attention. I'm not talking about tactics that people view as useless (like 1st tactic in the 3 mara spec trees) but tactics that are actually useless. For example:

WL has two,
Threatening Distraction and Stalker.

These tactics lower threat generated on the player and lion respectively.

Now lets not kid ourselves... These tactics hold 0 value in any PVE situation and PVP situation. Lets say you do decide to run the war lion one, there is no fight that the lion is going to take aggro over the actual player. And lets say you decide to run the player one, well you have detaunt and guard respectively when running any Gunbad/Crypts&Tunnels/Bastion Stair.

If these tactics hold such value to *certain individuals I request that they be moved to core like all the other "subtlety" and "menace" related tactics. I glanced over the other classes in career builder and I don't believe any other classes have such atrocious tactics dealing with PVE threat in their spec-able paths. Threating Distraction is a 7pt tactic too...

So I made this post with kind of the intention for an open discussion on what should be put in place of these tactics, to start it off I noticed WL is one of the few Melee classes without an incoming heal debuff. This is unique in some regards as he does have an outgoing heal-debuff, something WH/Slayer and their mirrors have, but those classes also got the luxury of having an incoming HD as well. I propose that that Threatening Distraction could add a 50% incoming HD to WL's ability Fey Illusion. I know most WL's have Guile on their 2hand Subj/Fort weapons but AOE fluff debuff kinda belongs to Knights and Chosens with their HD Aura.
Spoiler:
The reason behind the ability Fey Illusion is because if we put it on Thin The Heard you have an ability that applies an outgoing and incoming healdebuff in 1 gcd and that might be considered a little too much, for some. If you put it on Shattering Blow a lot of white lions don't use this ability anymore with the damage reduction to it in recent patches as it used to be a very hard hitter in the normal rotation.

I'd like to know others thoughts about giving WL a Heal Debuff, right now slayer just holds so much favoritism as "order's Mdps". When you compare choppas and marauders they both put out and there is no clear "best" but WL vs Slayer although it is opinion at the end of the day most lean toward slayers because of ID, Retribution, Rampage, and Shattered Limbs.
For Stalker this is located in the tree of Guardian, which has to deal with the pet. This is the 1st tactic in the tree so when comparing it to other classes of similarity and recent forum complaints I came up with this idea: Your Lion now takes 50% less damage.
Spoiler:
Now reasoning on this change is because a lot of people complain about, "My war lion dies too much." or "Can't use war lion in rvr because its too squishy." Now in the past there was this ridiculous patch that made it so the war lion took like immensely reduced damage from anything AOE and it just made it unkillable, but a lot of players were able to use it in instances of large aoe damage. With the proposed change I'm hoping to appeal to the players who want to use their lion in city environments or just find it hard to keep the lion alive. Maybe players want to try running pack hunting in city they would have to spec into guardian to grab this tactic for increased survivability on the lion. Guardian is also a pretty decent solo-roam build that is heavily reliant on the lion and I could not only see myself using this tactic if I was ever playing alone in the guardian spec because of how important Leonine frenzy+Brutal Pounce is to actually down a target. So it holds value in the normal spec of the tree and alternative specs players could *try on WL.
Obviously if values are too high they can be tweaked but these tactics just make me sigh every time I look at them when im speccing around and testing out new things on the class. If you don't like the proposals lets try to be critical with things rather than responses akin to, "You're dumb, L2P noob." Explain your case as to why these proposals don't make sense and lets try to have a constructive conversation! This thread isn't necessarily a proposal to change things but to have a conversation on something that should be changed, so what would we as a community want to see it changed to.
Threatening Distraction is actually pretty good for solo PvE, especially here where War Lion's Roar(Taunt) don't really work properly. On live it was meh, but still something to consider. A niche Tactic, but very good at its niche. Much better than Stalker at any rate.

Stalker, otoh, is pure garbage. When do you want your Lion to have such a low threat? Solo? Lol no. Group? Maybe. But then again...what is "Baited Strike", again? You can simply use that 2-3x in a group and Lion's aggro is taken care of. It's pure, unmitigated catastrophe and should be changed.

If its good for solo pve that would possibly useful for leveling, but I don't think you should spec into mid tree for a niche thing such as leveling, if its really that useful I think it should be moved to core and they should have an actual tactic placed into mid tree instead.
[2 Weeks]/[Definitely Not Heretics]
Kuro Mara R8x
Bunji DoK R6x
Kurodon BG R8x
Curo Whitelion R8x
Scryptmar WP R6x
Aiero Swordwizard R5x

arorwne
Suspended
Posts: 235

Re: [WL] Questionable Tactics

Post#4 » Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:53 am

Stophy22 wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:48 am
Spoiler:
arorwne wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:45 am
Stophy22 wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:13 pm So there are a few tactics in a few trees that really don't have any use. It would be interesting to see these tactics get some attention. I'm not talking about tactics that people view as useless (like 1st tactic in the 3 mara spec trees) but tactics that are actually useless. For example:

WL has two,
Threatening Distraction and Stalker.

These tactics lower threat generated on the player and lion respectively.

Now lets not kid ourselves... These tactics hold 0 value in any PVE situation and PVP situation. Lets say you do decide to run the war lion one, there is no fight that the lion is going to take aggro over the actual player. And lets say you decide to run the player one, well you have detaunt and guard respectively when running any Gunbad/Crypts&Tunnels/Bastion Stair.

If these tactics hold such value to *certain individuals I request that they be moved to core like all the other "subtlety" and "menace" related tactics. I glanced over the other classes in career builder and I don't believe any other classes have such atrocious tactics dealing with PVE threat in their spec-able paths. Threating Distraction is a 7pt tactic too...

So I made this post with kind of the intention for an open discussion on what should be put in place of these tactics, to start it off I noticed WL is one of the few Melee classes without an incoming heal debuff. This is unique in some regards as he does have an outgoing heal-debuff, something WH/Slayer and their mirrors have, but those classes also got the luxury of having an incoming HD as well. I propose that that Threatening Distraction could add a 50% incoming HD to WL's ability Fey Illusion. I know most WL's have Guile on their 2hand Subj/Fort weapons but AOE fluff debuff kinda belongs to Knights and Chosens with their HD Aura.
Spoiler:
The reason behind the ability Fey Illusion is because if we put it on Thin The Heard you have an ability that applies an outgoing and incoming healdebuff in 1 gcd and that might be considered a little too much, for some. If you put it on Shattering Blow a lot of white lions don't use this ability anymore with the damage reduction to it in recent patches as it used to be a very hard hitter in the normal rotation.

I'd like to know others thoughts about giving WL a Heal Debuff, right now slayer just holds so much favoritism as "order's Mdps". When you compare choppas and marauders they both put out and there is no clear "best" but WL vs Slayer although it is opinion at the end of the day most lean toward slayers because of ID, Retribution, Rampage, and Shattered Limbs.
For Stalker this is located in the tree of Guardian, which has to deal with the pet. This is the 1st tactic in the tree so when comparing it to other classes of similarity and recent forum complaints I came up with this idea: Your Lion now takes 50% less damage.
Spoiler:
Now reasoning on this change is because a lot of people complain about, "My war lion dies too much." or "Can't use war lion in rvr because its too squishy." Now in the past there was this ridiculous patch that made it so the war lion took like immensely reduced damage from anything AOE and it just made it unkillable, but a lot of players were able to use it in instances of large aoe damage. With the proposed change I'm hoping to appeal to the players who want to use their lion in city environments or just find it hard to keep the lion alive. Maybe players want to try running pack hunting in city they would have to spec into guardian to grab this tactic for increased survivability on the lion. Guardian is also a pretty decent solo-roam build that is heavily reliant on the lion and I could not only see myself using this tactic if I was ever playing alone in the guardian spec because of how important Leonine frenzy+Brutal Pounce is to actually down a target. So it holds value in the normal spec of the tree and alternative specs players could *try on WL.
Obviously if values are too high they can be tweaked but these tactics just make me sigh every time I look at them when im speccing around and testing out new things on the class. If you don't like the proposals lets try to be critical with things rather than responses akin to, "You're dumb, L2P noob." Explain your case as to why these proposals don't make sense and lets try to have a constructive conversation! This thread isn't necessarily a proposal to change things but to have a conversation on something that should be changed, so what would we as a community want to see it changed to.
Threatening Distraction is actually pretty good for solo PvE, especially here where War Lion's Roar(Taunt) don't really work properly. On live it was meh, but still something to consider. A niche Tactic, but very good at its niche. Much better than Stalker at any rate.

Stalker, otoh, is pure garbage. When do you want your Lion to have such a low threat? Solo? Lol no. Group? Maybe. But then again...what is "Baited Strike", again? You can simply use that 2-3x in a group and Lion's aggro is taken care of. It's pure, unmitigated catastrophe and should be changed.

If its good for solo pve that would possibly useful for leveling, but I don't think you should spec into mid tree for a niche thing such as leveling, if its really that useful I think it should be moved to core and they should have an actual tactic placed into mid tree instead.
One way Distraction could be helped is if it got a little rework. Just remove the TtT requirement and move it to core. Voila! Now you can use it with TtK!

No idea about Stalker though, sorry. But I do think its current form is hopeless.

arorwne
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Posts: 235

Re: [WL] Questionable Tactics

Post#5 » Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:00 am

Actually, your proposal for Stalker is very good. Combine that with my proposal for Distraction and ... yeah, it becomes very good at what it does. Maybe even combine those tactics, idk.

And, yeah. A proper Tactic should take place where Distraction is right now.

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footpatrol2
Posts: 1093

Re: [WL] Questionable Tactics

Post#6 » Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:19 am

So What tactic does WL have that is Core that should be moved into the spec tree's? Maybe loner or speed training should be swapped so you can have the threat as a core tactic.

See what I did there?

Or... are you asking for a complete invention of a new tactic and adding a new tactic to the WL toolkit? Wouldn't that be a little unfair that the WL has more tactic's then any other class?

It is a benefit that a threat tactic is in a spec slot because it free's up a good tactic to be core. It should work and be useful thou. Maybe it will be when pve becomes a thing with land of the dead.

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normanis
Posts: 1304
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Re: [WL] Questionable Tactics

Post#7 » Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:24 am

just my thoughts
Threatening Distraction (core) - byt pack synergy make same as mara crit damage tactic ( u have pet or dont have pet its works)
stalker (do ppl use pet in pve?) - make stalker with reduced cd on pet abilities by 50% ( for example brutal punce 15 sec and core pet abilities also reduced by 50% cd) u anyway sacrefice tactic slot +speed train just for pet to work
"Iron Within, Iron Without!"

gandresch
Posts: 126

Re: [WL] Questionable Tactics

Post#8 » Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:15 am

footpatrol2 wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:19 am So What tactic does WL have that is Core that should be moved into the spec tree's? Maybe loner or speed training should be swapped so you can have the threat as a core tactic.

See what I did there?

Or... are you asking for a complete invention of a new tactic and adding a new tactic to the WL toolkit? Wouldn't that be a little unfair that the WL has more tactic's then any other class?

It is a benefit that a threat tactic is in a spec slot because it free's up a good tactic to be core. It should work and be useful thou. Maybe it will be when pve becomes a thing with land of the dead.
This is Funny. SH gets tons of new skills added and a new tactic as well. Path of Bouncing consists literally of two trees and you moaning about maybe a new tactic for the WL.
The bias is real.

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footpatrol2
Posts: 1093

Re: [WL] Questionable Tactics

Post#9 » Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:48 am

I don't agree with the SH changes.

Sundowner
Posts: 468

Re: [WL] Questionable Tactics

Post#10 » Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:02 am

Completely agree, these two tactics being mastery tactics is at least very strange. No one uses stalker, TD is kinda good sometimes, but judging from the fact that bonus system of TTT with pet is useless (This path implies that WL does dmg and pet tanks, but pet is given bonus wounds and toughness based on player's item bonus wounds/toughness, which player clearly not stacks). Either moving these tactics to core or replacing them with useful tactics and giving WL standard -25% pve aggro tactic would be good.

As for suggestions, giving both outgoing and incoming healdebuff to class with very good mobility, burst and medium armor will be total overkill.

Lion already takes only 25% dmg from aoe, additional 50% wouldn't help much
Or... are you asking for a complete invention of a new tactic and adding a new tactic to the WL toolkit? Wouldn't that be a little unfair that the WL has more tactic's then any other class?
No, of course. Important is useful tactics class has, not net amount of tactics available.

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