[WL] AoE spec too strong for city siege

[notre]

I don't mean to be rude or harsh - but don't you think maybe having this poor of an understanding of how immunities work should entirely disqualify you from any sort of discussion about balance?

No problem,
It's not understanding, it's what they do.
I'm sick of landing with the two inmunities (and with the same counter) after being pulled by a "solo WL".
Maybe it's you who needs to play more against WL, i play against every day, next time i will maje you a screenshot of the inmunities, but you gonna find some excuse to blame me.

and maybe some of them are using cheats to bypass the gcd...
i don't know, i just know that i land with two inmunities from a WL with the same counter most of the time.

[casmCharlie]

I don't mean to be rude or harsh - but don't you think maybe having this poor of an understanding of how immunities work should entirely disqualify you from any sort of discussion about balance?

No problem,
It's not understanding, it's what they do.
I'm sick of landing with the two inmunities (and with the same counter) after being pulled by a "solo WL".
Maybe it's you who needs to play more against WL, i play against every day, next time i will maje you a screenshot of the inmunities, but you gonna find some excuse to blame me.

and maybe some of them are using cheats to bypass the gcd...
i don't know, i just know that i land with two inmunities from a WL with the same counter most of the time.

Don't cry cheats. And don't assume that I don't play destro and haven't faced my fair share of WLs. The simple fact is that you aren't being pulled and then rooted. It can't happen. It isn't happening. Not to you or anyone else. If they wanna waste some of their their KD while you're still in the air that's fine they can try. Mara can do that too. Also focussed mind exists for us healers getting pulled and scared we're gonna be KDd.

There are issues with the game that still need ironing out - on both destro and order side. The idea that WL aoe and wb utility is a big one is just..... Well.... Yikes.....

[CeeJay89]

P.D.
Secrets
The Issue with WL is it's has waaaaaay too many tools in a single class, the rest have the same tools but spread among other classes.

I've had a good chuckle at Destro complaining in the past, but I don't think anything comes close to the laugh I get from a Destruction player complaining about how many tools an Order class has. The realm with the two most overloaded (overloaded; not overpowered) classes in the game.

[Jastojan]

P.D.
Secrets
The Issue with WL is it's has waaaaaay too many tools in a single class, the rest have the same tools but spread among other classes.

This! This exactly destroys the good feel of the game... too many tools combined with biggest single target burst in a single class. In short this combination is... too much. If you try to be objetive guys, you have to agree. BUT, I realy cant imagine WL without his abilities. Instead of any nerfs you should reconsider some buffs on the other side. I do not like nerfs and braking classes. It is my opinion. Many players play their favorite classes and then... puff, nerf! It is not the best way to motivate players to stay.

[Kheriell]

https://vimeo.com/355774026

[Starx]

In what reality does WL have more utility than mara or even MSH? The only reason ppl hate WL is because its a pub stomper class that comes with its own built in armor debuff. It's not gonna kill any decent players inside a group with 2 healers ever by itself. it just excels at pugstomping.

The whole reason WE is even viable in destro 6 mans when WH is completely garbage is bc of how much utility destro tanks/mdps have and the fact that DPS DoK isnt a meme. WL has armor debuff, pull and M1 root thats pretty much it. For armor debuffs all order has is WL, no one wants to run IB bc SM damage is off the charts, knight is well a **** knight... and this is so bad that even double slayer groups just run armor debuff sets on knight instead of running IB.

[Omegus]

The WL cannot open with both immunities. They have a silence for 4s, a knockdown for 3 on a single target (both of these share the same immunity) and share the same morale root with Marauder.
Marauder has a silence, AOE knockdown, and a mirror of the morale root WL gets.

Speaking generally (i.e. not the loner city siege spec) as a healer it's entirely possible to lock me out of most heals for much longer than a silence. Open with pull - because I'm now in the air I can only use instant cast heals as you can't use any channels or casts until you land (and any casts you were in the middle of casting get interupted when the pull starts) and when you do land then it's silence/KD time. After that if I survived then there's interupt and/or cast bar pushback (can we remove casting pushback from the game?). I'm lucky as a Zealot I do have a instant direct heal but it won't keep you alive during the burst. I'm aware Maraduders can spec for something similar too and if I was an order healer I'd probably be annoyed about that too.

I can be locked out of cast-time heals for length of cast before interupt + duration of pull + duration of cooldown + interupt + time to recast which is way more than 3-4 seconds.

The interrupt? Cool, you stop casting for maybe 0.3 seconds and - get this - you can press the BUTTON THAT HEALS AGAIN. Novel concept. It's not making it go on a long cooldown. Can literally cast again. And that interrupt has a 15s cooldown. How many WLs actually get a Swordmaster for Whispering Winds interrupts every 10s? What's the uptime on that - not 100%? You mean Whispering Winds has a COOLDOWN? ABSURD!

Again, not quite. If I have cast times when healing then I'm usually casting either single-target spike (2s cast), group heal (2.5s cast) or res (3s cast). If you interupt within the first 1.5 seconds then I still to wait out the rest of the GCD before I can "press the button that heals again" and then go through the cast again. If I get interupted after the 1.5s then I've already gone passed the GCD but still have the full cast time to go through again when recasting. Wasted GCD plus new cast time is not 0.3 seconds.

Literally any class attacking a caster can set them back, btw. It just so happens that positioning is a thing. More on that later in this post!

WLs seem to be two sets of setback in one - both the player and the lion seem to generate setback.

Oh, I didn't even mention SHADOW. WARRIORS. which have 60% crit in Assault stance, or '20% armor pen, tournament winning rampaging CHAMPIONS' of a class named Slayer. If you'd like me to banepost (hi Halta) about these classes, I'd be more than glad to - just not in the AOE WL shitpost thread.

This is (or was...) about city specs. Assault SWs don't have the mobility of WLs or the AoE of Slayers and nobody has found a good build to make them work in the city other than in a dedicated 6-man healer killer party. Outside of the city... **** aSW :'(.

the pet

Can it stop running up keep walls from the ground outside and attacking the oil / players please?

while keeping class-defining mechanics in and balanced.

"DPS" zealot most nerfed class of 2020

[Secrets]

Marauder has a silence, AOE knockdown, and a mirror of the morale root WL gets.

What I do not agree on however, is the the Marauder is anywhere near the same state as the WL currently, nor has it has the balance tweaks/QOL changes many of the other classes in ROR have for the past 6 years (since 2014). I actually think the REAL issue that this thread is highlighting is not that the WL is "OP" it's that the Marauder is under-tuned (and not in it's drain spec, which is tuned just fine).

Sincerely, - The Foof

We have similar thoughts on this. Mara will be receiving some buffs likely tomorrow (Saturday), these notes are subject to change:

PSM = Primary Stat Modifier, how much strength contributes to the abilities' damage.

Thunderous Blow: PSM 1.5 -> 1.65
Cutting Claw: PSM 1.5 -> 1.65
Draining Swipe: PSM 0.75 -> 0.95
Gut Ripper: PSM 1.5 -> 1.65
Tainted Claw: PSM 1.5 -> 1.65
Corruption: PSM 1.5 -> 1.65
Rend: PSM 1.5 -> 1.65
Pulverize: PSM 1.5 -> 1.65
Convulsive Slashing: PSM 0.6 -> 0.7
Impale: PSM 1.5 -> 1.7
Debilitate: PSM 1.5 -> 1.65
Unstable Convulsions: PSM 0.6 -> 0.7
Wave of Terror: PSM 0.75 -> 1.75, drains morale instead of stopping it
Crushing Blows: Reduced Chance to proc off melee attacks to 10%, morale stopper added (and actually works lol)
Concussive Jolt: PSM 0.86 -> 1.25
Wrecking Ball: PSM 0.22 -> 0.33
Wave of Mutilation: PSM 0.38 -> 0.55
Flail: PSM 0.75 -> 1.0
Demolition: PSM 0.86 -> 1.13
Mutated Energy: PSM 1.5 -> 1.65
Mouth of Tzeentch: PSM 0.75 -> 1.0
Gift of Savagery (8394): PSM 1.5 -> 1.65

[Grock]

We have similar thoughts on this. Mara will be receiving some buffs likely tomorrow (Saturday), these notes are subject to change:

PSM = Primary Stat Modifier, how much strength contributes to the abilities' damage.

Thunderous Blow: PSM 1.5 -> 1.65
Cutting Claw: PSM 1.5 -> 1.65
Draining Swipe: PSM 0.75 -> 0.95
Gut Ripper: PSM 1.5 -> 1.65
Tainted Claw: PSM 1.5 -> 1.65
Corruption: PSM 1.5 -> 1.65
Rend: PSM 1.5 -> 1.65
Pulverize: PSM 1.5 -> 1.65
Convulsive Slashing: PSM 0.6 -> 0.7
Impale: PSM 1.5 -> 1.7
Debilitate: PSM 1.5 -> 1.65
Unstable Convulsions: PSM 0.6 -> 0.7
Wave of Terror: PSM 0.75 -> 1.75, drains morale instead of stopping it
Crushing Blows: Reduced Chance to proc off melee attacks to 10%, morale stopper added (and actually works lol)
Concussive Jolt: PSM 0.86 -> 1.25
Wrecking Ball: PSM 0.22 -> 0.33
Wave of Mutilation: PSM 0.38 -> 0.55
Flail: PSM 0.75 -> 1.0
Demolition: PSM 0.86 -> 1.13
Mutated Energy: PSM 1.5 -> 1.65
Mouth of Tzeentch: PSM 0.75 -> 1.0
Gift of Savagery (8394): PSM 1.5 -> 1.65

That looks... interseting, but i have some doubts about the blanket buff to stat-scalings like that (though gotta admit some of them look a bit too low before change)
But wasn't mara's main problem that base values were nerfed too much?

[Foofmonger]

Marauder has a silence, AOE knockdown, and a mirror of the morale root WL gets.

What I do not agree on however, is the the Marauder is anywhere near the same state as the WL currently, nor has it has the balance tweaks/QOL changes many of the other classes in ROR have for the past 6 years (since 2014). I actually think the REAL issue that this thread is highlighting is not that the WL is "OP" it's that the Marauder is under-tuned (and not in it's drain spec, which is tuned just fine).

Sincerely, - The Foof

We have similar thoughts on this. Mara will be receiving some buffs likely tomorrow (Saturday), these notes are subject to change:

PSM = Primary Stat Modifier, how much strength contributes to the abilities' damage.

Thunderous Blow: PSM 1.5 -> 1.65
Cutting Claw: PSM 1.5 -> 1.65
Draining Swipe: PSM 0.75 -> 0.95
Gut Ripper: PSM 1.5 -> 1.65
Tainted Claw: PSM 1.5 -> 1.65
Corruption: PSM 1.5 -> 1.65
Rend: PSM 1.5 -> 1.65
Pulverize: PSM 1.5 -> 1.65
Convulsive Slashing: PSM 0.6 -> 0.7
Impale: PSM 1.5 -> 1.7
Debilitate: PSM 1.5 -> 1.65
Unstable Convulsions: PSM 0.6 -> 0.7
Wave of Terror: PSM 0.75 -> 1.75, drains morale instead of stopping it
Crushing Blows: Reduced Chance to proc off melee attacks to 10%, morale stopper added (and actually works lol)
Concussive Jolt: PSM 0.86 -> 1.25
Wrecking Ball: PSM 0.22 -> 0.33
Wave of Mutilation: PSM 0.38 -> 0.55
Flail: PSM 0.75 -> 1.0
Demolition: PSM 0.86 -> 1.13
Mutated Energy: PSM 1.5 -> 1.65
Mouth of Tzeentch: PSM 0.75 -> 1.0
Gift of Savagery (8394): PSM 1.5 -> 1.65

Well jee wiz! That looks pretty good to me, and looks like y'all are doing a good job.