(SW) How are Shadow Warriors?

[Airiden]

Do they do decent damage? Are they useful? How are they compared to all range classes?

[kazuya482]

Mediocre for ranged spec. Currently busted Melee spec though.

[zgolec]

Bad.

The only worth spec is ASW in small scale and sc premades. Other than that forget about place in any organised WB.

[Fendelphi]

So from a total noob's point of view(mine), the issues are as following:

1) Ranged SW cant apply enough pressure. They have some utility at range, but lacks AoE pressure and single target kill potential to really compete with the other ranged options(Engi, BW, probably even AAM).
Most of their pressure tools are physical damage based and have Skirmisher range. Also, generally speaking, to really use those pressure abilities well, you need heavy Tactics investment and team setup(for instance, to get the most out of Festering Arrow, one of the few non-physical abilities in your arsenal, you need Enchanted Arrows and No Quarter, as well as SMs with Wispering Wind. All to utilize 1 ability in your kit effectively).

2) They have skills which are not very, hmm, good. Steady Aim further reduces the mobility of the SW, while also reducing the general DPS, at least it seems like that.
I am also not sold on Hunter's Fervor. You spend AP and time to apply a +20% AP regen buff to your group for 15 seconds(on a 60 sec CD). Compare that to other classes that can give constant AP regen without dropping their own active DPS, and it just does not seem worthwhile. I mean, sure it helps, but you end up spending a lot of time and AP to improve your teams performance marginally while also only applying minimal pressure.

3) Scout Stance and Skirmish Stance does very little in comparison to Assault stance. Granted, Assault is more risky and need the extras for survivability and actually doing what needs to be done.
But Scout Stance gets a minor increase in range(+10%), while Engineers(and Magus) gets up to +25% and an ability with a base range of 150 feet.
They get a bit of Ballistic Skill and Initiative(which is nice), but also locks you out of several abilities(like Eye Shot and Flanking Shot, as well as most of your AoE abilities).
Skirmish is in a similar state. A bit of Toughness(the only damage reduction buff outside of Assault stance), a small bit of crit chance and the ability to auto attack while moving. But you now lack some of your long range options and utility options(Throat Shot, Acid Arrow).


So what to do? Well, I have a few suggestions(of which not all are required. Pick and choose what seems balanced. Maybe everything is needed, maybe only 1):

1) Allow Spiral-Fletched Arrow to be used in any stance. This can potentially allow it to reach 100+ feet range(Powerful Draw tactic and Scout stance), which combined with Split Arrows and Pierce Defenses could make for a decent AoE pressure and debuff ability.
It will also keep the Scout more mobile and better at dictating range duels when using Glass Arrow.
Squig Herder can already combine Gas Squig with "Shootin' wif da wind" for long range, on the move DPS. And they get splitting Arrer and Pierce Defense as well. Why should SW be denied a similar combo?

2) Increase the utility. Maybe ranged Shadow Warrior shouldnt compete with the Engineer or the BW in terms of damage and pressure. Maybe it is supposed to offer mild pressure to compensate for team utility. In that case, increase the effectiveness of this utility! Some of these could be added to the SH as well.
- Increase Hunter's Fervor to 30% or reduce the CD so that even a single SW can help their team out more.
- Increase the armor reduction and block reduction of Acid Arrow to better assist your other damage dealers. Or if that seems broken, give it effects that it can synergize with(like a mild 5 second snare if it crits) or make it more reliable(20% less likely to be blocked or dodged itself).

3) Remake Steady Aim. The situations where it is useful is far between and more often than not, it breaks your flow.
How about this: Once active, for the next 6 seconds, your attacks bypass 15% of your targets defenses(block, parry, dodge). It does not increase your cast times. It simply makes your damage output more reliable for a short while. 30 seconds CD. Use it to increase the chance that certain debuffs from you stick(like Acid Arrow, Eye Shot etc.).
This remake would both ensure a more reliable burst and more reliable utility.

[wargrimnir]

So from a total noob's point of view(mine), the issues are as following:

1) Ranged SW cant apply enough pressure. They have some utility at range, but lacks AoE pressure and single target kill potential to really compete with the other ranged options(Engi, BW, probably even AAM).
Most of their pressure tools are physical damage based and have Skirmisher range. Also, generally speaking, to really use those pressure abilities well, you need heavy Tactics investment and team setup(for instance, to get the most out of Festering Arrow, one of the few non-physical abilities in your arsenal, you need Enchanted Arrows and No Quarter, as well as SMs with Wispering Wind. All to utilize 1 ability in your kit effectively).

2) They have skills which are not very, hmm, good. Steady Aim further reduces the mobility of the SW, while also reducing the general DPS, at least it seems like that.
I am also not sold on Hunter's Fervor. You spend AP and time to apply a +20% AP regen buff to your group for 15 seconds(on a 60 sec CD). Compare that to other classes that can give constant AP regen without dropping their own active DPS, and it just does not seem worthwhile. I mean, sure it helps, but you end up spending a lot of time and AP to improve your teams performance marginally while also only applying minimal pressure.

3) Scout Stance and Skirmish Stance does very little in comparison to Assault stance. Granted, Assault is more risky and need the extras for survivability and actually doing what needs to be done.
But Scout Stance gets a minor increase in range(+10%), while Engineers(and Magus) gets up to +25% and an ability with a base range of 150 feet.
They get a bit of Ballistic Skill and Initiative(which is nice), but also locks you out of several abilities(like Eye Shot and Flanking Shot, as well as most of your AoE abilities).
Skirmish is in a similar state. A bit of Toughness(the only damage reduction buff outside of Assault stance), a small bit of crit chance and the ability to auto attack while moving. But you now lack some of your long range options and utility options(Throat Shot, Acid Arrow).


So what to do? Well, I have a few suggestions(of which not all are required. Pick and choose what seems balanced. Maybe everything is needed, maybe only 1):

1) Allow Spiral-Fletched Arrow to be used in any stance. This can potentially allow it to reach 100+ feet range(Powerful Draw tactic and Scout stance), which combined with Split Arrows and Pierce Defenses could make for a decent AoE pressure and debuff ability.
It will also keep the Scout more mobile and better at dictating range duels when using Glass Arrow.
Squig Herder can already combine Gas Squig with "Shootin' wif da wind" for long range, on the move DPS. And they get splitting Arrer and Pierce Defense as well. Why should SW be denied a similar combo?

2) Increase the utility. Maybe ranged Shadow Warrior shouldnt compete with the Engineer or the BW in terms of damage and pressure. Maybe it is supposed to offer mild pressure to compensate for team utility. In that case, increase the effectiveness of this utility! Some of these could be added to the SH as well.
- Increase Hunter's Fervor to 30% or reduce the CD so that even a single SW can help their team out more.
- Increase the armor reduction and block reduction of Acid Arrow to better assist your other damage dealers. Or if that seems broken, give it effects that it can synergize with(like a mild 5 second snare if it crits) or make it more reliable(20% less likely to be blocked or dodged itself).

3) Remake Steady Aim. The situations where it is useful is far between and more often than not, it breaks your flow.
How about this: Once active, for the next 6 seconds, your attacks bypass 15% of your targets defenses(block, parry, dodge). It does not increase your cast times. It simply makes your damage output more reliable for a short while. 30 seconds CD. Use it to increase the chance that certain debuffs from you stick(like Acid Arrow, Eye Shot etc.).
This remake would both ensure a more reliable burst and more reliable utility.

This would make a pretty good balance forum proposal.
viewforum.php?f=78

[Elftwin95]

So from a total noob's point of view(mine), the issues are as following:

1) Ranged SW cant apply enough pressure. They have some utility at range, but lacks AoE pressure and single target kill potential to really compete with the other ranged options(Engi, BW, probably even AAM).
Most of their pressure tools are physical damage based and have Skirmisher range. Also, generally speaking, to really use those pressure abilities well, you need heavy Tactics investment and team setup(for instance, to get the most out of Festering Arrow, one of the few non-physical abilities in your arsenal, you need Enchanted Arrows and No Quarter, as well as SMs with Wispering Wind. All to utilize 1 ability in your kit effectively).

2) They have skills which are not very, hmm, good. Steady Aim further reduces the mobility of the SW, while also reducing the general DPS, at least it seems like that.
I am also not sold on Hunter's Fervor. You spend AP and time to apply a +20% AP regen buff to your group for 15 seconds(on a 60 sec CD). Compare that to other classes that can give constant AP regen without dropping their own active DPS, and it just does not seem worthwhile. I mean, sure it helps, but you end up spending a lot of time and AP to improve your teams performance marginally while also only applying minimal pressure.

3) Scout Stance and Skirmish Stance does very little in comparison to Assault stance. Granted, Assault is more risky and need the extras for survivability and actually doing what needs to be done.
But Scout Stance gets a minor increase in range(+10%), while Engineers(and Magus) gets up to +25% and an ability with a base range of 150 feet.
They get a bit of Ballistic Skill and Initiative(which is nice), but also locks you out of several abilities(like Eye Shot and Flanking Shot, as well as most of your AoE abilities).
Skirmish is in a similar state. A bit of Toughness(the only damage reduction buff outside of Assault stance), a small bit of crit chance and the ability to auto attack while moving. But you now lack some of your long range options and utility options(Throat Shot, Acid Arrow).


So what to do? Well, I have a few suggestions(of which not all are required. Pick and choose what seems balanced. Maybe everything is needed, maybe only 1):

1) Allow Spiral-Fletched Arrow to be used in any stance. This can potentially allow it to reach 100+ feet range(Powerful Draw tactic and Scout stance), which combined with Split Arrows and Pierce Defenses could make for a decent AoE pressure and debuff ability.
It will also keep the Scout more mobile and better at dictating range duels when using Glass Arrow.
Squig Herder can already combine Gas Squig with "Shootin' wif da wind" for long range, on the move DPS. And they get splitting Arrer and Pierce Defense as well. Why should SW be denied a similar combo?

2) Increase the utility. Maybe ranged Shadow Warrior shouldnt compete with the Engineer or the BW in terms of damage and pressure. Maybe it is supposed to offer mild pressure to compensate for team utility. In that case, increase the effectiveness of this utility! Some of these could be added to the SH as well.
- Increase Hunter's Fervor to 30% or reduce the CD so that even a single SW can help their team out more.
- Increase the armor reduction and block reduction of Acid Arrow to better assist your other damage dealers. Or if that seems broken, give it effects that it can synergize with(like a mild 5 second snare if it crits) or make it more reliable(20% less likely to be blocked or dodged itself).

3) Remake Steady Aim. The situations where it is useful is far between and more often than not, it breaks your flow.
How about this: Once active, for the next 6 seconds, your attacks bypass 15% of your targets defenses(block, parry, dodge). It does not increase your cast times. It simply makes your damage output more reliable for a short while. 30 seconds CD. Use it to increase the chance that certain debuffs from you stick(like Acid Arrow, Eye Shot etc.).
This remake would both ensure a more reliable burst and more reliable utility.

As a fellow RSW I agree fully on all of the above. I would highly recommend this in the Balance Forum!

[Teetog]

+1 for these changes. Nothing over the top, could be mirrored if required to SH.

Ithu - 52 SW

[Fendelphi]

Already posted on balance forum.
Edit: My one concern is that changes made for improving Scout and Skirmish also improves Assault, which is fine as it is(at least it does not need to get stronger, IMO).

[jokerspsycho]

Already posted on balance forum.
Edit: My one concern is that changes made for improving Scout and Skirmish also improves Assault, which is fine as it is(at least it does not need to get stronger, IMO).

Is assault really that good? When I was looking at it, looked like the class could use a leap in a similiar spot to SH and WL to make the most out of a assault/skirmishers build.

[Mystry]

Already posted on balance forum.
Edit: My one concern is that changes made for improving Scout and Skirmish also improves Assault, which is fine as it is(at least it does not need to get stronger, IMO).

Is assault really that good? When I was looking at it, looked like the class could use a leap in a similiar spot to SH and WL to make the most out of a assault/skirmishers build.

Assault isn't 'that' good, it's just that Scout and Skirmish are next to useless. Assault has some mildly decent burst, but pales in comparison to Slayer or even WL, and has next to zero survivability.

I don't know what is with the trend of all the cool Order classes being dogshit, but it's an actual thing.