[AM] Why I chose Wounds not Armour talismans.
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Re: [AM] Why I chose Wounds not Armour talismans.
Full conq with 50% - 50% tough - wounds tallies, 3p BL with armor tallie in cloak, winds impervious and subju staff with ini and tough talisman, tough and armor pot, gives you wellrounded defensive stats and high enough stats for mechanic empowered heals and BE lifetaps of 2k+.
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Re: [AM] Why I chose Wounds not Armour talismans.
Spoiler:
Rip Phalanx
Re: [AM] Why I chose Wounds not Armour talismans.
Mara skews the average because of its high armor penetration, same with ST witch elf.
I actually just slot willpower (and one ini? iirc) and rely on cooldowns and positioning for survival. But to each his own.
I actually just slot willpower (and one ini? iirc) and rely on cooldowns and positioning for survival. But to each his own.
- anarchypark
- Posts: 2073
Re: [AM] Why I chose Wounds not Armour talismans.
AM can moving heal
but it's not effective compared to RP, WP.
your main heals are 2sec 3sec and channel.
AM moving heals are 1 HoT, 1sec 55ap heal, 1dps heal, 1dps HoT, shield and heal buff. if you count cleans shield, that's all.
compare this to other healers moving heal.
RP insta heal + HoT.
WP 2 HoT + armor.
shield and detaunt are common.
their main heals are supporting moving heal.
there are oh **** moment your dps heal's disrupted, out of mechanic point, erased detaunt.
detaunt 1, find another to dps heal, that's not easy.
I would say it's worst moving healer.
good at stationary burst heal.
so buying 1 more sec with big hp pool is better way i think.
does anybody tested wound build?
but it's not effective compared to RP, WP.
your main heals are 2sec 3sec and channel.
AM moving heals are 1 HoT, 1sec 55ap heal, 1dps heal, 1dps HoT, shield and heal buff. if you count cleans shield, that's all.
compare this to other healers moving heal.
RP insta heal + HoT.
WP 2 HoT + armor.
shield and detaunt are common.
their main heals are supporting moving heal.
there are oh **** moment your dps heal's disrupted, out of mechanic point, erased detaunt.
detaunt 1, find another to dps heal, that's not easy.
I would say it's worst moving healer.
good at stationary burst heal.
so buying 1 more sec with big hp pool is better way i think.
does anybody tested wound build?
SM8, SW8, AM8, WL7, KoBS5, BW5, WP8, WH7, IB7, Eng5, RP5, SL6
BG8, Sorc8, DoK8, WE7, Chs8, Mg8, Ze7, Mara8, BO6, SH7, Shm5, Chop4
SC summary - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=20415
( last update : 2020.06.09)
BG8, Sorc8, DoK8, WE7, Chs8, Mg8, Ze7, Mara8, BO6, SH7, Shm5, Chop4
SC summary - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=20415
( last update : 2020.06.09)
- nebelwerfer
- Posts: 646
Re: [AM] Why I chose Wounds not Armour talismans.
I wonder if the stat debuff of say a marauder w wounds and toughness debuff will affect the mechanics calculation because that is potentially 300+ stat points removed.
So if you are running a low intellect build and have "force" stacks will you get 0.7 * original stats or debuffed stats?
can sort of be mitigated by 60/60 stat liniments i suppose
So if you are running a low intellect build and have "force" stacks will you get 0.7 * original stats or debuffed stats?
can sort of be mitigated by 60/60 stat liniments i suppose
- Eathisword
- Posts: 808
Re: [AM] Why I chose Wounds not Armour talismans.
Korhadreth wrote: ↑Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:56 pm
I'm going to have a look at toughness and willpower versus wounds next but I wanted to eliminate armour first because there are a lot of peeps still stacking it. I have 303 initiative with a single +22 talisman on the staff.
Lots of people are stacking it because it makes sense to stack it. In all the diatribes here, you forgo to actually imagine a real fighting situation.
The False reasoning
Credible threat to a healer are not range, so you can discount them. Most are dot based, which you can cleanse (magus, sham, SH), and sorc you can nullify rotation with detaunt or plain bubble when WoP reaches 1s to avoid the crit.
The first real threat is WE. Sneaking on you, opens, hit. With 1300 health more, but about 25% armor mit less, your 1300 health advantages over armor is gone in 4-5 AA (roughly 200-300 mit from armor on each). So basically, its gone before the open KD ends. Useless.
Second is offensive tank. They are the one that will catch you first in most circumstances. With armor stack, you probably mit 40-50% of their damage. Without, 20-30%. Again, your 1300 health bonus, last about 2 GCD. Nothing to write home about.
Finally, versus choppa, mara and MSH, your 1330 health might land you about 1s more life time over armor. Seriously, 1 guillotine+AA is 2000 health gone without armor/toughness stacking. So your 1330 doesn't give you as much as you seem to think.
The Sound reasoning
THEN, and someone touched on this on the first page, you are not factoring someone else or yourself healing you. Whenever you are healed, armor, resist and toughness becomes infinitely more valuable than any wounds you can stack, simply because the threshold of damage that will bring you down to 0 health is going up, so it takes less and less healing to keep you up.
Suppose you take 1000 damage per second, but the healing is only 900. You <lose< 100 health per second. Hence after 8300/100 seconds (with wounds talis), you will die all the same as in 7000/100 seconds. It'll give you 13s more life.
Now, with 15%-25% more mit (from armor talis), that damage becomes 750-850, but the healing stays at 900. You will never die, since the total health you lose every second is 0. Based on that, every thin bit of armor you can stack is more valuable than the bit before because it bring the amount of healing you need to stay alive lower and lower. And so on. Whereas wounds is a static investment. The wounds you stack now, is worth the same as the wounds you stacked before.
And as the numbers increase, armor gets better and better, whereas wounds gets worse and worse. Suppose you now take 10k damage per second. But are healed for 9k per second. Your 130 wounds now give you 1.3s more life instead of 13s. Your armor stacking, giving you 10-20% mit, still let's you live forever mitigating now 1000-2000 damage per second instead of the 100-200 in the example above bringing the damage you take below the threshold you are healed for, 9k.
The only time this is not true, and again, this was touched on in the first page, is versus morale bomb in WB play. If you are in the habit of getting caught in morale bomb range. THen yeah, wounds work because mitigation is dropped to 0. But honestly, this should not be a regular concern to any experienced player. Furthermore, a good double pot for 4-5k healing should keep you up if you ever accidentally get caught off-position vs morale.
tbh, stacking 7x armor talis - 5 in armor, 1 in wepon, 1 in BL cloak - (for 1000+ armor) on healers is a no brainer (except probably sham, that can reach tank toughness level).
My 2 cents.
Re: [AM] Why I chose Wounds not Armour talismans.
Mara wounds debuff was nerfed, not sure about toughness one thonebelwerfer wrote: ↑Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:32 am I wonder if the stat debuff of say a marauder w wounds and toughness debuff will affect the mechanics calculation because that is potentially 300+ stat points removed.
So if you are running a low intellect build and have "force" stacks will you get 0.7 * original stats or debuffed stats?
can sort of be mitigated by 60/60 stat liniments i suppose
Re: [AM] Why I chose Wounds not Armour talismans.
Dont agree with volgo, wounds is what you need because 1 wounds debuff and ur down to amounts that if u get a cheeky crit, ur in the dangerzone of the finishers. Needless to say u want to avoid that
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Re: [AM] Why I chose Wounds not Armour talismans.
Eathisword wrote: ↑Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:45 amKorhadreth wrote: ↑Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:56 pm
I'm going to have a look at toughness and willpower versus wounds next but I wanted to eliminate armour first because there are a lot of peeps still stacking it. I have 303 initiative with a single +22 talisman on the staff.
Lots of people are stacking it because it makes sense to stack it. In all the diatribes here, you forgo to actually imagine a real fighting situation.
The False reasoning
Credible threat to a healer are not range, so you can discount them. Most are dot based, which you can cleanse (magus, sham, SH), and sorc you can nullify rotation with detaunt or plain bubble when WoP reaches 1s to avoid the crit.
The first real threat is WE. Sneaking on you, opens, hit. With 1300 health more, but about 25% armor mit less, your 1300 health advantages over armor is gone in 4-5 AA (roughly 200-300 mit from armor on each). So basically, its gone before the open KD ends. Useless.
About what mitigation are you talking fighting against WE that opens on you ? Because its surely not Armor that will help you survive opener from WE. And that 1300 Wounds gives you 1s more to react (detaunt, kb, shield).
Eathisword wrote: ↑Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:45 am The only time this is not true, and again, this was touched on in the first page, is versus morale bomb in WB play. If you are in the habit of getting caught in morale bomb range. THen yeah, wounds work because mitigation is dropped to 0. But honestly, this should not be a regular concern to any experienced player. Furthermore, a good double pot for 4-5k healing should keep you up if you ever accidentally get caught off-position vs morale.
Clearly you didnt ever fight in premade WB vs enemy blob or enemy premade WB... specially playing as order fighting choppa pull trains, you will get hit by enemy bomb no matter how smart you move.
Your WB is only that strong how strong are your Healers under a pressure.
Yes armor will help you most of the time vs destro because most of destro WBs are heavy melee trains (Choppas and Maras or even new MeleeSH) but its not true that overall Armor stacking is better than Wounds.
Good reason for Armor talismans is that its basically only way to get additional Armor, you cant get that stat from Renown, so you can go Armor Talis and get other stats from Renown.
Wounds+Armor or Wounds+Toughness over Pure Armor stacking.
Last edited by Xergon on Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: [AM] Why I chose Wounds not Armour talismans.
Not really a hard concept. Armor is better against physical damage, but does nothing for anything else. Determine what's killing you and decide what you want to do.
You could make an argument for anything in a specific situation. Magic resistances, wounds and maybe even toughness.
I would stack armor.
You could make an argument for anything in a specific situation. Magic resistances, wounds and maybe even toughness.
I would stack armor.
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