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[AM] Why I chose Wounds not Armour talismans.

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Ugle
Posts: 589

Re: [AM] Why I chose Wounds not Armour talismans.

Post#21 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:46 pm

Full conq with 50% - 50% tough - wounds tallies, 3p BL with armor tallie in cloak, winds impervious and subju staff with ini and tough talisman, tough and armor pot, gives you wellrounded defensive stats and high enough stats for mechanic empowered heals and BE lifetaps of 2k+.
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lefze
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Re: [AM] Why I chose Wounds not Armour talismans.

Post#22 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:22 pm

Spoiler:
Korhadreth wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:17 pm
Korhadreth wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:17 pm
Ramasee wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:34 pm I've got a spreadsheet that can very easily tell you this stuff for AM.

Let's start with some real stats: Full Conq + Genesis + SC weapon + 2x futile strikes + 4x spiritual refinement

Left side is 7x armor; right side is 7x health

Health 5880 7420
Chance to Be Crit 0.55% 0.55%
Armor: 2,276 1,100
Spirit Resist: 21.90% 21.90%
Corporeal Resist: 22.43% 22.43%
Elemental Resist: 22.08% 22.08%
Block%: 0.00% 0.00%
Parry%: 0.88% 0.88%
Dodge%: 6.91% 6.91%
Disrupt%: 9.67% 9.67%

So I'm going to give you two numbers for each type of damager. Heal Mod (HM) which is how effective a heal is cast on you when being attacked by this target; and effective health points (EHP) which is how much raw damage you can take without heals before death.

AoE Mara
Heal Mod: 0.9436377965 0.8618289524
Effective HP: 5548.590243 6394.770827

AoE Choppa
Heal Mod: 1.396115001 1.079525739
Effective HP: 8209.156208 8010.08098

AoE Sorc
Heal Mod: 0.637085715 0.6370819663
Effective HP: 3746.064004 4727.14819

AoE Magus
Heal Mod: 1.001514247 1.001474194
Effective HP: 5888.903774 7430.938516

Squig Herder
Heal Mod: 1.330611823 1.028934407
Effective HP: 7823.99752 7634.6933

ST Mara
Heal Mod: 0.8745321358 0.798714953
Effective HP: 5142.248959 5926.464951

ST Choppa
Heal Mod: 1.205717539 0.9323022498
Effective HP: 7089.619132 6917.682693

Witch Elf
Heal Mod: 0.7064641469 0.7064583819
Effective HP: 4154.009184 5241.921194

DPS DoK
Heal Mod: 1.396115001 1.079525739
Effective HP: 8209.156208 8010.08098

ST Sorc
Heal Mod: 0.6197682037 0.619756425
Effective HP: 3644.237038 4598.592673

ST Magus
Heal Mod: 1.079636932 1.079581789
Effective HP: 6348.265162 8010.496872
Looking at the EHP's gained from wounds vs armour and considering which classes AM should be taking damage from vs kiting I'm definitely still a wounds man.

difference in EHP with Wounds
ST Magus 1662.23171
AoE Sorc 981.084186
AoE Mara 846.180584
Witch Elf 1087.91201
ST Sorc 954.355635
AoE Magus 1542.034742
7073.798867 (average 1543)

difference in EHP with Armour
Squig Herder 189.30422
AoE Choppa 199.075228
DPS DoK 199.075228
ST Choppa 171.936439
ST Mara 784.215992 <--- one class skews the average
1543.607107 (average 308)
That is a killer spreadsheet btw you and Lefze are legends.
Full credits to Ram, you can see the extent of my work on it in the credits, not much exactly :)
Rip Phalanx

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Ramasee
Posts: 457

Re: [AM] Why I chose Wounds not Armour talismans.

Post#23 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:44 pm

Mara skews the average because of its high armor penetration, same with ST witch elf.

I actually just slot willpower (and one ini? iirc) and rely on cooldowns and positioning for survival. But to each his own.

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anarchypark
Posts: 2073

Re: [AM] Why I chose Wounds not Armour talismans.

Post#24 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:42 am

AM can moving heal
but it's not effective compared to RP, WP.
your main heals are 2sec 3sec and channel.

AM moving heals are 1 HoT, 1sec 55ap heal, 1dps heal, 1dps HoT, shield and heal buff. if you count cleans shield, that's all.

compare this to other healers moving heal.
RP insta heal + HoT.
WP 2 HoT + armor.
shield and detaunt are common.
their main heals are supporting moving heal.

there are oh **** moment your dps heal's disrupted, out of mechanic point, erased detaunt.
detaunt 1, find another to dps heal, that's not easy.

I would say it's worst moving healer.
good at stationary burst heal.

so buying 1 more sec with big hp pool is better way i think.
does anybody tested wound build?
SM8, SW8, AM8, WL7, KoBS5, BW5, WP8, WH7, IB7, Eng5, RP5, SL6
BG8, Sorc8, DoK8, WE7, Chs8, Mg8, Ze7, Mara8, BO6, SH7, Shm5, Chop4
SC summary - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=20415
( last update : 2020.06.09)

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nebelwerfer
Posts: 646

Re: [AM] Why I chose Wounds not Armour talismans.

Post#25 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:32 am

I wonder if the stat debuff of say a marauder w wounds and toughness debuff will affect the mechanics calculation because that is potentially 300+ stat points removed.

So if you are running a low intellect build and have "force" stacks will you get 0.7 * original stats or debuffed stats?

can sort of be mitigated by 60/60 stat liniments i suppose

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Eathisword
Posts: 808

Re: [AM] Why I chose Wounds not Armour talismans.

Post#26 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:45 am

Korhadreth wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:56 pm
I'm going to have a look at toughness and willpower versus wounds next but I wanted to eliminate armour first because there are a lot of peeps still stacking it. I have 303 initiative with a single +22 talisman on the staff.

Lots of people are stacking it because it makes sense to stack it. In all the diatribes here, you forgo to actually imagine a real fighting situation.

The False reasoning
Credible threat to a healer are not range, so you can discount them. Most are dot based, which you can cleanse (magus, sham, SH), and sorc you can nullify rotation with detaunt or plain bubble when WoP reaches 1s to avoid the crit.

The first real threat is WE. Sneaking on you, opens, hit. With 1300 health more, but about 25% armor mit less, your 1300 health advantages over armor is gone in 4-5 AA (roughly 200-300 mit from armor on each). So basically, its gone before the open KD ends. Useless.

Second is offensive tank. They are the one that will catch you first in most circumstances. With armor stack, you probably mit 40-50% of their damage. Without, 20-30%. Again, your 1300 health bonus, last about 2 GCD. Nothing to write home about.

Finally, versus choppa, mara and MSH, your 1330 health might land you about 1s more life time over armor. Seriously, 1 guillotine+AA is 2000 health gone without armor/toughness stacking. So your 1330 doesn't give you as much as you seem to think.

The Sound reasoning
THEN, and someone touched on this on the first page, you are not factoring someone else or yourself healing you. Whenever you are healed, armor, resist and toughness becomes infinitely more valuable than any wounds you can stack, simply because the threshold of damage that will bring you down to 0 health is going up, so it takes less and less healing to keep you up.

Suppose you take 1000 damage per second, but the healing is only 900. You <lose< 100 health per second. Hence after 8300/100 seconds (with wounds talis), you will die all the same as in 7000/100 seconds. It'll give you 13s more life.
Now, with 15%-25% more mit (from armor talis), that damage becomes 750-850, but the healing stays at 900. You will never die, since the total health you lose every second is 0. Based on that, every thin bit of armor you can stack is more valuable than the bit before because it bring the amount of healing you need to stay alive lower and lower. And so on. Whereas wounds is a static investment. The wounds you stack now, is worth the same as the wounds you stacked before.

And as the numbers increase, armor gets better and better, whereas wounds gets worse and worse. Suppose you now take 10k damage per second. But are healed for 9k per second. Your 130 wounds now give you 1.3s more life instead of 13s. Your armor stacking, giving you 10-20% mit, still let's you live forever mitigating now 1000-2000 damage per second instead of the 100-200 in the example above bringing the damage you take below the threshold you are healed for, 9k.

The only time this is not true, and again, this was touched on in the first page, is versus morale bomb in WB play. If you are in the habit of getting caught in morale bomb range. THen yeah, wounds work because mitigation is dropped to 0. But honestly, this should not be a regular concern to any experienced player. Furthermore, a good double pot for 4-5k healing should keep you up if you ever accidentally get caught off-position vs morale.

tbh, stacking 7x armor talis - 5 in armor, 1 in wepon, 1 in BL cloak - (for 1000+ armor) on healers is a no brainer (except probably sham, that can reach tank toughness level).

My 2 cents.
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Aisha
Posts: 290

Re: [AM] Why I chose Wounds not Armour talismans.

Post#27 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:07 am

nebelwerfer wrote: Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:32 am I wonder if the stat debuff of say a marauder w wounds and toughness debuff will affect the mechanics calculation because that is potentially 300+ stat points removed.

So if you are running a low intellect build and have "force" stacks will you get 0.7 * original stats or debuffed stats?

can sort of be mitigated by 60/60 stat liniments i suppose
Mara wounds debuff was nerfed, not sure about toughness one tho

zwerrie
Posts: 92

Re: [AM] Why I chose Wounds not Armour talismans.

Post#28 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:02 am

Dont agree with volgo, wounds is what you need because 1 wounds debuff and ur down to amounts that if u get a cheeky crit, ur in the dangerzone of the finishers. Needless to say u want to avoid that

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Xergon
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Re: [AM] Why I chose Wounds not Armour talismans.

Post#29 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:17 am

Eathisword wrote: Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:45 am
Korhadreth wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:56 pm
I'm going to have a look at toughness and willpower versus wounds next but I wanted to eliminate armour first because there are a lot of peeps still stacking it. I have 303 initiative with a single +22 talisman on the staff.

Lots of people are stacking it because it makes sense to stack it. In all the diatribes here, you forgo to actually imagine a real fighting situation.

The False reasoning
Credible threat to a healer are not range, so you can discount them. Most are dot based, which you can cleanse (magus, sham, SH), and sorc you can nullify rotation with detaunt or plain bubble when WoP reaches 1s to avoid the crit.

The first real threat is WE. Sneaking on you, opens, hit. With 1300 health more, but about 25% armor mit less, your 1300 health advantages over armor is gone in 4-5 AA (roughly 200-300 mit from armor on each). So basically, its gone before the open KD ends. Useless.

About what mitigation are you talking fighting against WE that opens on you ? Because its surely not Armor that will help you survive opener from WE. And that 1300 Wounds gives you 1s more to react (detaunt, kb, shield).

Eathisword wrote: Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:45 am The only time this is not true, and again, this was touched on in the first page, is versus morale bomb in WB play. If you are in the habit of getting caught in morale bomb range. THen yeah, wounds work because mitigation is dropped to 0. But honestly, this should not be a regular concern to any experienced player. Furthermore, a good double pot for 4-5k healing should keep you up if you ever accidentally get caught off-position vs morale.

Clearly you didnt ever fight in premade WB vs enemy blob or enemy premade WB... specially playing as order fighting choppa pull trains, you will get hit by enemy bomb no matter how smart you move.
Your WB is only that strong how strong are your Healers under a pressure.

Yes armor will help you most of the time vs destro because most of destro WBs are heavy melee trains (Choppas and Maras or even new MeleeSH) but its not true that overall Armor stacking is better than Wounds.
Good reason for Armor talismans is that its basically only way to get additional Armor, you cant get that stat from Renown, so you can go Armor Talis and get other stats from Renown.

Wounds+Armor or Wounds+Toughness over Pure Armor stacking.
Last edited by Xergon on Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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adamthelc
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Re: [AM] Why I chose Wounds not Armour talismans.

Post#30 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:20 am

Not really a hard concept. Armor is better against physical damage, but does nothing for anything else. Determine what's killing you and decide what you want to do.

You could make an argument for anything in a specific situation. Magic resistances, wounds and maybe even toughness.

I would stack armor.

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