White Lion Changes (8/25/2018)

[Hugatsaga]

Spoiler:

Personally not a fan of this whole pseudo-mara WL. I much rather preferred the idea of introducing beastmaster (wl mirror) to des and emp captain (mara) to order. That way you are just introducing new options and not making anyone feel like their class is taken away from them (or rather changed into something totally different). WL, especially guardian specced one was always good at bullying squishies (check Avellett's vid from 2010 if you dont believe) and sucked at larger scale.

I never cared about how WL performs in WB's. Rather it filled the niche role of being perfect for 1-3 man roaming while hunter- axeman was decent for 1fg play. Also I very much liked microing the pet and its abilities. Ofc you could blow up squishies pressing 123 but trying to play the class on its full potential was actually really fun and more challenging than any other class ive played in this game. Not saying guardian wasnt OP or anything… it was for sure and I have no idea what would have been best way of nerfing guardian. I believe it was Torque who had nice outside-the-box thinking nerfs on guardian initially (putting LF in M4 spot and later changed pet str stat gain from wounds to toughness) although end result was still too OP.

If I was in charge I would revert the latest change and probably have guardian spec WL's pet gain stats on str but reduce stat gain ratios so the end result would be squishier WL and pet that hits less hard but is still useful and WL would still very much be gimped if pet dies... like it has been since forever. Also I would have been nerfing heal tactic (Aza did this in the last patch which was definitely good change imo) and armor/disrupt tactic. Thats my vision for the class anyway... yours is probably different.

Harassing is different from killing someone before they recover from a stun.

You also cannot use live as something to support your argument because live had a massive gear and renown gap.

My definition of bullying (in context of WL vs squishy targets) is different from yours but that's not relevant so let's not go there.

About live videos: I wouldn't write everything from live off because of gear and renown gap. Rather I'd look them case by case. There is silly rr100 warpforged stuff with 4k+ hits and then there is this rr7x Invader + Tyrant mix gear WL with 277 DMG bonus. Mine is around 210 or so with str pot atm. At that time lots of people had full sov and whatnot so its not that ridiculous.


Anyway... I feel like the whole thought process with WL nerfing should have been something along these lines:

1) Is Hunter - Axeman broken? No. Ok, leave it alone then.
2) Is Guardian spec broken? Yep. Ok, how exactly?
- a) Is dmg too high? If yes identify if its WL or pet dmg that is too high and reduce it.
- b) Is survivability too high? If yes, reduce it.

Dont think anyone asked for anything else. I believe Mythic did pretty good job designing white lion class and like said before, I too would have preferred to see more fine tuning approach for the whole thing. WL has obvious strengths and weaknesses which you accept when rolling that class, pet reliance for instance. Aza is probably trying to address pet reliance by reducing significance of pet but I disagree with that approach wholeheartedly. Being pet-reliant comes with being pet class in the first place. Its a built-in feature, not a bug or flaw in class design imo. However, if you like petless playstyle you have this amazing tactic called Loner for that ...which wouldn't mind seeing being buffed (and I mean fine-tuning way of buffing) for more viable options.

[Hugatsaga]

Spoiler:

previously witnessed in Order realm chats:
"Mara is OP, I wish we had one"
these days in same chats:
"damn devs destroying the WL, I don't want to be like a mara, I want to remain unique"

How does that make any sense? Are you trying to point out some hypocrisy or what? Are people whining about mara asking for their WL to be replaced with some sort of High Elf marauder? And since when realm chat whines have been making any sense in the first place?

Spoiler:

Said uniqueness would somehow include; dominating 1v1 fights, being the Tyrant of Smallscale and Harvester of Pugs, having higher burst than WE or WH who don't get medium armour, "balanced Guardian" (previously criticizing this would get you warnings from authorities as salty Destro tears, until eventually you couldn't get Scs without several balanced pokemon masters and Destro solo roaming population diminished considerably in lakes due to not wanting to face such a balanced class).
Ya, class was shaite in largescale and easy to counter in 6v6 with just killing the pet, but at least it was ""unique"" in its dominance over smallscale - thank god Aza is not going for smallscale/1v1 balance but is ready to tear down the class and make it more similar to the other 5 melee classes and granting WL tools so they can have place in warband, and the previous "mystery" of Order warbands lacking melee frontline might just be fixed.

If dmg is too high, reduce it. If survivability is too high, reduce it. If KD duration is too long, reduce it. Etc..

However, when comparing WL burst to WE/WH burst I have to say actually I feel like WL should be bursty, even more so than WE/WH. Why's that? Well first off: it was designed that way and even this is not live surely you want to stay somewhat loyal to original idea? Second: with WE/WH you can torment/AW all day, put healdebuff and BAL or activate witchbrew and just keep hitting them for pretty high sustain dmg for long time. WL on the other hand does pounce & kd - armor debuff - coord strike or something along these lines and if target doesnt die you have nothing left. Hard hitting abilities are on 10s cd, you are out of AP and pet is probably dying if theres any more enemies around.

Again, if burst is too high, you can nerf burst. All I'm asking is don't overnerf it because thats all WL's have.


Edit: sorry for doublepost but if kept in 1 post that would have been huge wall of text about two different subjects.

[dansari]

However, when comparing WL burst to WE/WH burst I have to say actually I feel like WL should be bursty, even more so than WE/WH. Why's that? Well first off: it was designed that way and even this is not live surely you want to stay somewhat loyal to original idea?

WL was originally designed as a tank class, so I'm not sure that argument is placed correctly.

[Hugatsaga]

However, when comparing WL burst to WE/WH burst I have to say actually I feel like WL should be bursty, even more so than WE/WH. Why's that? Well first off: it was designed that way and even this is not live surely you want to stay somewhat loyal to original idea?

WL was originally designed as a tank class, so I'm not sure that argument is placed correctly.

Well ever since Ive played the game (sometime in 2009), it filled MDPS slot for high elf race, while swordmaster being a tank.

Your post is irrelevant nitpicking anyway. But fine, let me rephrase: surely you want to stay somewhat loyal to the idea WL became and stayed for around 100% lifespan of this game (WAR + RoR combined)?

[Lesnoj]

I have played WL since original WAR and didn’t play much other characters, because I enjoyed the mechanic and the play style. Now it has nothing to do with WL, now its some hybrid class that only look like a WL. WL was unique now it’s nothing than a counterpart of Mara with even more complicated gameplay :/ If WL was OP ok then play with numbers but why completely changing the core of the character ?

[Fiskrens]

However, when comparing WL burst to WE/WH burst I have to say actually I feel like WL should be bursty, even more so than WE/WH. Why's that? Well first off: it was designed that way and even this is not live surely you want to stay somewhat loyal to original idea?

WL was originally designed as a tank class, so I'm not sure that argument is placed correctly.

At early stages of dev table? I have no recollection of them being tanks in game but maybe I wasn't paying enough attention early on.

[Azarael]

Your post is irrelevant nitpicking anyway. But fine, let me rephrase: surely you want to stay somewhat loyal to the idea WL became and stayed for around 100% lifespan of this game (WAR + RoR combined)?

I'll take this one: No. It's posted in the guidelines section. I'm not a traditionalist or a conservative, so what something was and how long it assumed that guise has absolutely no meaning to me whatsoever. I will not needlessly make change - the problem is that a lot of the people who were/are playing WL by definition do not believe any change was necessary because if they did, why would they still be playing the class?

[oaliaen]

If WL was OP ok then play with numbers

Its not ok..i feel you bro. But balance comes always first than self enjoyment.

[Fiskrens]

If WL was OP ok then play with numbers

Its not ok..i feel you bro. But balance comes always first than self enjoyment.

Playing with the numbers isn't balancing?

[oaliaen]

If WL was OP ok then play with numbers

Its not ok..i feel you bro. But balance comes always first than self enjoyment.

Playing with the numbers isn't balancing?

i assume they wanted to say if Wl is Op then just play whit number against him..and its not ok.