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Outrider Patrol nerf

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Allorien
Posts: 44

Re: Outrider Patrol nerf

Post#11 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:24 am

Now the DPS classes with M2 bombs are equal, that is one way to understand how "balance" works out.
If you want to now make proposal that SW (with already very good ranged arsenal) should get some kind of high dmg dealing ranged nuke morale finisher akin to Engi M3, go for it - engi pays for it by lacking a M2 aoe dmg morale.
Other solution could also be to simply nerf OP as M2 and make it just ST but return it to 100 feet, in case SWs feel like they do not want to be equal in access to M2 bomb morales alongside other dps classes.
Or as someone pointed above about "SW being support", maybe they could have OP replaced with Engi -20% dmg reduction morale so they can be a proper support class. ;)
Never met you. Feel most anyone working on this project takes themselves fairly seriously and all have good intentions. Understanding the 'why' behind a change is amazing, most of the time.

You know what's been awesome about this game compared to tons of others? Each faction has mirrors, but they are by far, not the same! Over time, some mirror classes have had abilities become more similar, tactics that have been changed to do the same as the other classes, and even mastery's have been adjusted. With all this change making things more similar is there still imbalance? Yes. There will always be imbalance. Some players with determination will find the best possible heal spec, damage spec, tank spec, group composition, in general the best which becomes the meta. Then that in a specific context, it can be seen as over powered or even 'broken.' So more changes are made. This is a constant cycle. Regardless of changes; until each faction has the exact same classes (different names but same exact abilities/tactics/morals/mastery paths), there will be imba followed by changes followed by imba in an endless cycle.

You are right, for more hard core players SW's are pretty close to inferior to others that could fill the same role of either rdps or mdps. They are not going to put out as much damage as other higher end damage dealing classes. SW brings its spammable heal debuff, leading shots, group ap regeneration increase, along with potential utility (through mastery paths and core aoe snare) while most of the time, at range, not being a heavy liability on healers.

I don't know if this is where the dev team wants to go. But with this change of 'lets make all the same' regardless if there was any imba in the game, or any feedback to support the want/need for a change....seems to be coming from the train of thought 'if more is the same then its easier to balance or is more balanced.'

I have seen from you, no specific reason to change this M2 for SW (besides the idea of 'lets make them all the same because if more is the same, then its easier to balance or is more balanced). Where is the supporting evidence of an imba or abuse? Why is 100ft range that special? Is it even used at 100ft that often compared to shorter ranges anyways? If left at 100ft it is equal to M2 bomb morals of other dps classes, but also allows me to use it from a keep wall!

I would not want to induce resentment in a part of the population, over something that if left alone, wouldn't have made much of a difference in game. Now other players will see that their classes, at least their morals, are susceptible to the same treatment via your train of thought.

"Now the DPS classes with M2 bombs are equal, that is one way to understand how 'balance' works out." Please explain variables that balance out? Are all play-styles and spec's the same (along with survive-ability and viability of using the given moral with the type of playstyle/spec)? NO. You are looking at the use of M2's of dps classes in a RvR situation of 'moral bombing' and you also assume that SW's are 'LA spamming with ES tactic' to be effective in WB/rvr (I might play differently - I will get one or two heal debuffs prior to pushes, use VoN + LA followed by Barrage only using them once each, HF and then damage on called target, plus cc on a healer or high damage dealer).

Trying to get a deeper feel for your perspective. You know, trying to put myself in your shoes. I'd really like to know what you enjoy playing the most? Maybe this has something to do with why you think OP is over-performing?

Most of the SW population runs Skirmish spec. There are some that swap to a Festering Arrow spec, and some around that go melee. There is even a massive thread for general best builds/armor/weapons/tactics/etc. Let's take each into consideration with the question in mind, 'is the new OP viable for this spec:
Path of the Scout: no, why - SW with no KD, a little more than 65 ft range minimum to apply Skirmish DoTs all other abilities have greater range, survive-ability of the class depends upon keeping enemy at a great a range as possible
Path of Assault: yes, why - SW is a quazi melee dps that still under performs other mdps classes, but why waste OP for my M2 when FM is better for anti cc? I'm in a sea of cc range as mdps, ALSO M3 stagger is better, so is the M4...both in terms not having to select the moral then click the area to use it on, they are just instant aoe damage/stagger
Path of the Skirmisher: I have played this spec for more than 50% of my time on RoR, I know 30ft is danger zone (high risk of getting cc'd and I am in melee range with a short range kiting spec sw), OP could be used, but higher risk, and FM is better than a 30 ft nuke, M3 is better aoe 30ft nuke/stagger that i only use to escape or drop behind an enemy wb from a keep into their back lines (while group/wb calls targets leaving others staggered....NOT LA spamming with ES slotted; I do that if situation arises after the stagger wears off)

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adamthelc
Posts: 827

Re: Outrider Patrol nerf

Post#12 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:25 am

I'm not a huge fan of homogenization, but I understand why they did it.

I think you would be better off arguing against what they did as a whole instead of how it effects the one class you like to play. When you do that you lose some credibility because you arent seeing the big picture.

It's fair because now all ranged classes deal the damage instantly and have a similar range.

You seem to understand that they are doing it because it's easier to balance things when they are all the same so I dont understand why you are so upset.

When you standardize something, you cant make exceptions, because then everyone will want to be the exception.

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Allorien
Posts: 44

Re: Outrider Patrol nerf

Post#13 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:00 am

I think you would be better off arguing against what they did as a whole instead of how it effects the one class you like to play.
Thank you for feedback. That does sound better, and then have it be supported by members of each of the classes effected, and how new change to M2 effects each, how viable it is per mastery path, and if they have any other options for M2.
When you do that you lose some credibility because you arent seeing the big picture.
I don't feel I lose credibility; I have only typed about a class I know very well. I understand what you mean, but it doesn't necessarily mean I don't see the big picture.

Big picture is homogenization. But homogenization does NOT mean easier to balance.

There are varying play-styles and mastery paths. Just because the moral is the same does not mean it is equally viable to use effectively for each class and its respective options of play-styles.

Sure. Each M2 is exactly the same. You 'balance' moral, but you do not balance game-play.

This just forces players to stop slotting OP.

Why is this 'method' being used to 'balance' morals? Is there data on which class uses which moral? Are certain morals not slotted more than others? Are you wanting to decrease/increase the use of OP?

As I did state before; I will try my best to let the player base know what is going on here. I will poke and prod them by asking them, "Do you have a favorite moral?" Followed by, "well guess what! not for long!" And explain to them that this rdps M2 change is just the beginning. And if they don't wake up to the fact that if this method of changing/'balancing' of morals is allowed, that all uniqueness in morals will be obliterated. And that they may lose their moral options, which may limit the viability of the builds they use/most enjoy.

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adamthelc
Posts: 827

Re: Outrider Patrol nerf

Post#14 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:27 am

I am speculating but I think they want there to be some risk in using that morale. It's generally seen as the strong morale everyone complains about.

I understand the argument that SWs dont bring as much as something like a BW outside of a morale. So from a balance perspective theirs being stronger wouldnt be a disproportionate power level.

It seems like a change that is made in an attempt to balance morales and doesnt really consider class performance as a whole.

I am not going to defend that course of action, but I am not going to attack it either. I dont think an extra 70ft range on a single morale ability is going to make or break a class. If SWs arent good without that 70ft range I would say they arent good with it, so the issue isnt really the morale.

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live4treasure
Posts: 267

Re: Outrider Patrol nerf

Post#15 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:44 am

Nerfs to your class now will mean potential buffs in underperforming departments later. Gotta be a bit patient and your time under the sun will come.
Giladar - rr 80 DPS AM

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lefze
Suspended
Posts: 863

Re: Outrider Patrol nerf

Post#16 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:50 am

Aurandilaz wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:55 pm
lefze wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:04 pm

You are completely missing the whole point of the morale having more than one use. While sure, it could be used to participate in a moraledump as it is indeed AoE, it ALSO(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) had a use as a singletarget morale, as it had range. Same goes for a plethora of other morales. But I agree no class should really get special treatment in the morale department unless the overall balance calls for it, which was previously the case (It still is, but good **** luck deciphering the current state of balance after the last patch). So while I personally take FM over patrol any day, as I said previously the change opens up for a proposal to grant SW a replacement ST morale.
Now the DPS classes with M2 bombs are equal, that is one way to understand how "balance" works out.
If you want to now make proposal that SW (with already very good ranged arsenal) should get some kind of high dmg dealing ranged nuke morale finisher akin to Engi M3, go for it - engi pays for it by lacking a M2 aoe dmg morale.
Other solution could also be to simply nerf OP as M2 and make it just ST but return it to 100 feet, in case SWs feel like they do not want to be equal in access to M2 bomb morales alongside other dps classes.
Or as someone pointed above about "SW being support", maybe they could have OP replaced with Engi -20% dmg reduction morale so they can be a proper support class. ;)
No, all classes with M2 bombs are not equals, not even in the slightest. The fact that SW is called a support when talking about M2 bomb clearly shows that. Tell me, what support does an SW bring? It has literally zero utility, and requires miracles to even be able to have a half reliable stream of damage, and also Focused Mind slotted over Patrol in the first place. Because again, classes with M2 bombs are unequal, to a point where some can't even afford to choose direct damage morales.

In ST it is indeed a secondary dps, but AoE is not a point here.

And nowhere did I say the solution was to introduce cannon smash on SW. I specifically mentioned it would only be there to compensate for the lost ST use of Patrol, so would be more or less an equal morale sans the AoE. And it's also obvious that said morale would be a M2 as to not be a buff by letting SWs slot both FM and a offensive morale.

Anyways, you should know better than to confuse 6 man play with bomb play, or just stop playing stupid.
Rip Phalanx

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TanithScout
Posts: 48

Re: Outrider Patrol nerf

Post#17 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 5:16 pm

Hilarious balancing arguments.

I'd happily take OP for ST, the aoe was useless anyway as we have M3 for bombing.

SW bring what to a WB? 8% crit for group (damage and heal), 15% reduced chance to defend attacks if defended (tanks die) and what? OH YEH THEY WIPE WARBANDS WITH OUTRIDER PATROL... said nobody ever.

Make it 80FT and ST, or delete/replace.
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